Among news like a monk and an infidel GP doctor making six-figure income, there’s an interesting piece in ST two days ago – ex-top civil servant Ngiam Tong Dow worries that Singapore is becoming “high cost, low tech”.
“The United States has overtaken Britain because while some of their best went to Wall Street, their best still go into engineering.”
His concern is valid.
In Singapore, the best JC students are attracted by glitzy ads and employment survey reports (see example) glamorizing the banking and finance industry and repeatedly highlighting that top dollars are made there.
For engineers and techies, they only get to hear things like “with a basic degree, you get to wash test tubes”.
Or that engineering and tech talent are a dime a dozen from China and India.
It is no wonder that students die to get into the in-demand courses like business, finance and accounting, while engineering and technology-related courses are dumping grounds.
See my previous posts on getting out of engineering and dead end career.
We all know that techies are undervalued in sunny Singapore. You’re a techie, you make 5k and be happy. Stay happy. Else get out and go to countries like USA, Japan, or even China and Taiwan where tech talent are much more highly valued than over here. Or, get into banking or do a sales job.
So Mr Ngiam worries about the lack of local high-tech talent.
There’s always a simple solution (right?): Start paying top dollars for engineers.
Start with tech-related ministries and agencies like Mindef and MDA. Then, move to tech-related GLCs like Singapore Technologies and JTC.
Pay millions for, say, the Chief Innovator in DSTA and ask the media to cover this ad nauseum (much like the way life sciences were glamorized in the not too distant past).
Hopefully we get to confuse the students again.
202 Comments
I work as a software engineer.
Salesman bring in the deal, engineers got to fulfill whatever promises made by the salesman within the given time and budget.
End of the day, engineers are a bunch of overwork underpaid people
Hmmm..i guess its not the best place to be in for the long term..at least for a s/w engineer.
what about the IT departments in large banks?..are they no better?..how tough is it to get into one of those?..
Don’t lose your focus. If I were you, I’d use the offer you got as your entry to Singapore. Once you’ve got a PR here, it’ll be a lot easier to look around. Use this as your first step in.
Ok…Thanks a lot for the advice.
very interesting comments and observations..thought i would add my 2 cents as i did an engineering degree as well.
i did engineering as it was probably subconsciously ingrained in me since young that i should be an engineer. Prob that i do better in maths and science subjects in school led me thinking that as well even though i had more fun in humanities subjects. So i did electrical engineering in uni but took up a first job in IT. it’s been 7 years since. my starting pay was just over $2K. I earn about $200K annually in total doing IT sales. I am sure I will definitely not be earning that amount if I were to take up an engineering job. My annual is significantly less than many folks in the finance industry but i am currently happy at what i am doing. Of course, i dream about the bungalows and the maseratis but i am contented for the time being.
In hindsight, (as I went through my academic career without much thought), i would have taken up Business studies in uni and focussed on reaching for a MBA or a CFA after graduation. The reason for doing this is that I could enter the financial industry. From a salary perspective, it would have been much more lucrative.
some advice for folks. 2 key criteria for success from academic perspective – Language and Maths. With a strong command of the language, you can be effective in communications i.e. hear and be heard. Maths is a no-brainer. What you actually study in uni will not have that much a bearing on our career anyway as I always believe the course work in Uni just kinda “learning how to learn”. An inquisitive mind, a courageous heart and pure, unadulterated hard work goes a long way in career success as well. So if I were to go through uni again, I would choose something I would enjoy and easily excel in and spend the rest of uni time building up strong networks and basically enjoying that part of life. All this before the big plunge into working life.
jeepo,
What’s the job scope of IT Sales?
IT Engineer,
selling product and services of IT vendors like IBM, HP, etc. Sales roles vary from account managers, territory managers, prodct managers, sales managers, business development managers etc. basically having a quota to fulfil by either direct selling or indirect selling via channel partners. discussing the job scope is another 2-3hrs of coffee talk. drop me your email and we can continue the conversation from there if required.
jeepo,
I am a software engineer with 1 yr experience. Thanks for sharing the job scope of IT Sales.
Anyway IT Sales do sound stressful if you need to hit a given quota every month.
very interesting and ALIVE discussion here.
I’m interested to earn more in my new job as sales engineer. Thinking of taking up part-time sales related or business degree so that few yrs down the road can have better prospect or easier to find another better paid job. Can someone recommend any degree & which Uni ? Currently in late 20s.
Thank you
i think it’s great that you are proactive in furthering your career and capabilities. if you are thinking of a sales career, what you can do to jumpstart is probably gain more financial knowledge – understand basic finance, read annual reports, balance sheets, net present value etc. all these can actually help you put together a stronger proposal where you focus on return on investments, total cost of ownership etc rather than just product features.
pretty much, it depends on where you are right now and where you want to be. if you have a basic degree, you can work towards a advanced degree – be it a Masters, CFA or MBA. this can help to position yourself for more managerial roles. talk to more people in your target career industry to have more insights. basically, talk to more people across diff industries as well. you will find that you understand a lot more from diff perspectives and in the process you are also networking. 🙂
basically, if you are thinking through your actions, you should be fine. As i said before, nothing beats hard (sometimes smart) work, right attitude and EQ, except maybe a ridiculously rich uncle who names you as a beneficiary…
Thanks jeepo.
Totally agreed with you that instead of focusing on product features (which can easily replace by others), Focus on the return of investment and total cost of investment so that can have a stronger proposal.
I have a basic degree in mechanical engineering but I considering a business or finance degree as my foundation is not strong but yet I want to find courses that strongly use “Apply as you learn” teaching method. Currently my plan is to join the new company and learn the trade while try to figure out (talk to people in my target career industry as you have mentioned, discover my strong points and potential, find out available options). Hopefully after a yr, I can commmit to a course e.g.CFA
It is a no-brainer to choose a banking & finance carrer, rather than Engineering career –
(1) You spend only a quarter of the studying hours to secure that Finance degree, compared to a Engineering degree
(2) You start with higher pay and you get more money in shorter time, rather than slogging away in a factory with long hours
(3) You get to dress in nice suits and ties and work in swanky high rise office buildings in downtown Raffles place, compared to being shabbily dressed and getting holed up in a corner of Tuas or Jurong all your working life.
(4) Most importantly, you work alongside good -looking hot office babes as a banker , compared to being surrounded by male foreign technician all day long!!!
Just sharing my story.
Was in NTU Computer Engineering last year. Decided to drop after the 1st semester and enrolled into UOL Banking & Finance.
Currently still in my 1st year of undergraduate. I’m glad that I made the choice as my interest in IT dropped tremendously during 2 years NS and was really demoralized by the pace of technology. On the other hand, my interest in business/finance picked up ever since I was introduced to the book Rich Dad Poor Dad by RK. Never look back, I have since read a dozen more stocks/finance related books, I have never been more assured of my career direction than ever.
Current aim is to graduate with 1st class and pass CFA Level 1 (Self-Study).
hi collin, glad that you made that switch to pursue your dream job. true i’ve many friends who are not doing what they are trained for. better to sacrifice one year for a more relevant course and career henceforth.
in fact, i wouldn’t say you’ve wasted 1 yr of your time cos learning a new skill or knowledge is always handy, you can for example return to IT field not as programmer (and compete with armies of programmer from lower cost countries) but in biz development or govt regulatory fn.
enjoy your student life…the road to success is long but rewarding…
cheers,
mac, nus mba candidate
Hi guys, engineering education is not a waste at all, even that your eventual career path is to be a banker.
I did an engineering degree, and now working as derivatives trading. A handful of my classmates have gone to become pte banker, structurer, risk manager, quant,… thus you can still work in bank with engineering undergrad degree.
Actually thinking back, I will still do engineering as my undergrad degree given its quantitative and analytical training.
I’m still studying engineering in poly, but not doing too well (about average) due to a lack of interest in the field. Assuming money is my main priority and not minding the long working/studying hours, what should my next step be?
Work as a engineer WHILE studying financial stuff? Try to get into a banking course and then into university? Or … ?
Also note that I’m in Engineering Informatics and have modules in Business Information sysems, Project management, etc… would that help towards getting a banking degree?
Hi Poly Student,
Of course if possible, get a business degree from the local university. If not, you might want to try DL degrees.
But the 1st thing you should address now is to spend some time sorting out what you foresee your career path to be like. And then finding solutions or ways to help you attain that goal. Begin with the end in mind.
hi guys, i found this page while i was search for the salary chrats in sg. any way i’m iraqi studying in malaysia and i’m planning to come over to work next year in sg. i’m doing engineering so how is the salary of fresh grad. and is it ok to find a job bcoz i’m foreinger, which one is butter engineering or banking and what’s the requirement to work in these high paid banks
regards
Omar
rats, I think I’m so low paid. Am 34 this year at only 5.5k a mth
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today’s newspaper reports sg economy’s financials do not bode well, & engineers are in line for the next wave of retrenchments ?? sing dollar is going up, so our “costs” are going up ????
Mr. Low-paid : Paid 5.5k at 34 considered low paid ? Maybe you like to elaborate….how much time and sacrifice you made at work….At times, it also depend how much you spend — You earn 10k but have 8k expenditure also make you feel poor.
Zhenyi : Go overseas may not be happy. Another very important factor is you work under a capable superior who also take care of his men. I looking for a role model boss or superior who will make me work smart & hard to reach his level of success (money & Lifestyle)
CHeers
hi business degree
how much do sales engineer get these days ??
5.5k gross monthly for slavery dedicated engineer is no good.
Hi Business Degree,
I’m not an engineer. I’m a business analyst.
I wonder how much an engineer of my age makes.
5.5k in my opinion is peanuts.
Very disheartening. 🙁
If I leave engineering field for banking and finance, do I have to take up relevant degree? Because I do not have the relevant knowledge.. i do take up a couple of relevant subject during my uni life.. Pls advise.
Engineer,
It very much depends on which area of Banking & Finane you want to work in. Its a wide area.
You can bring your engineering degree to work as Engineer but in the Banking & Finance field. You will be able to pick up a lot of Finance knowledge but of course you are still pretty much in the backroom.
Anyway, its still down to the bottonline where you have to decide which area you want to work in and not just blindly go into Banking & Finance. You might get back-fire without knowing your path clearly.
@Low-paid: how many years of experience do you have?
I want to ask you 5 questions: Have you ever tried finding out the market rate? Have you ever gone for interviews with other companies to get a feel? Have you ever networked using LinkedIn to get yourself more opportunities? Have you ever contact your ex-colleagues or ex-bosses who are in other companies to see if there are more opportunities? Are you constantly improving yourself in your domain, with the long term objective of establishing yourself as an expert in that domain?
Until you have done all those, you can’t complain that you’re low-paid. If you’ve done all that and you still get that much, then yes, I agree, you are low-paid.
Hi Low pay, are u in banking? 5.5K for a BA? Just want to assess the market rate.
Howcome:
I’ve done pretty much those except doubting the effectiveness of linkedin. It’s more of a social career networking site to showcase your career highlights.
angpai:
I’m not in banking. BA is a pretty broad role and it differs from places to places.
So what is the market rate for BA in your domain? If everybody with experience similar to you is paid 5.5k, then you’re not low paid, no?
Hi LowPay, the value of BA is actually project manager cum system analyst with domain knowledge. If your industry is of low margin one such as retail, then 5.5K quite good already.
companies pay their staffers the same compensation, regardless of degree/post, based on seniority, & to maintain equity within the same company. so a 10 year BA will be paid the same as 10 year engineer.
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HR manager, I doubt so. You mean if you have programmers with 20 years of experience you’ll pay him the same as your (relatively young) CEO, who has 20 years of managing experience?
I’m not in retail. I’m in the professional services industry. So which is why I think I’m shortchanged. Then again, I don’t have additional certifications apart from my Computing degree.
Am looking to jump ship!
A fantastic Blog with some great inputs! As a non-singaporean engineer, the details’ve come as a surprise to me. Are the salary levels for engineers more or less at par across different sectors, say software/ chemical/ manufacturing? Generally, software tends to be towards the higher side in quite a few countries. Does this hold in Singapore? Also, what would be a decent monthly sal for an expat with 7 yrs of very good R&D software experience? S$ 7K??
Hi eng_in_quandary, r u sure u want to do R&D in Singapore? U notice the title of this thread?
Hi Low-paid, 5.5K not that bad already if your company is a stable, wont close type. Is very much depends on how u save and not how much u earn.
Eh, of course it very much depends on how much you earn also. 70% of 5.5k and 70% of 20k is very different leh 🙂
I’ve always been good at saving, since I started working I was able to save about 50% of my salary. Now that my salary has gone higher, I can save around 70%.
How much you earn matters VERY MUCH.
Sure, there are people who earn 100k/month and spend 100k/month and as such are poorer than us who save 10% of our (much lower) salary. But these people are irrelevant to our purpose of building wealth, except as lessons (don’t do it like they do), and as useless consolations (see, earn so much also cannot save, I’m better, har har har…)
There’s a limit to how much you can save per month without making yourself too miserable. Past that, the only way to improve is by improving how much you earn.
Quite a good informative discussions in the forum, thanks.Hi, myself Priyojit from India. I am looking for an opportunity to work in Singapore.Presently I am workng with TCE Consulting Engineers in India (a TATA enterprise) as a Planning Engineer & co-ordinator I have 3 yrs & 9 months experiance in building construction since I completed my academics-Bachelor in Architecture & Post Graduation in Construction Management .I have got hands on experiance in planning with MS Project & Primavera. I am exposed to handling special construction projects like Hospitals & Automobile plants. Can any body guide me in this regard. What should be my expectations. My email ID is [email protected]
At the end of the day, if one is not satisfied, no matter how high his/her salary is, he/she will not be happy.
I guess I will try to learn to be contented with my meagre pay 🙂
hi angpai
how much should engineer at 34 years be paid ??
Just want to assess the market rate.
Depends what kind of engineer. IT Engineer? Normal rate is around 6-8k.
Shldn’t it be an engineer with x number of years of experience should be paid how much as opposed to how old right?
If you are 34, I reckoned 8-10 years?
Yeap, Dude is right–that was my assumption.
Remember year 2003~2004? when only 77 jobs offered per-month island wide..(base on Jobsdb for Mechanical Engineer)
my batch of friends graduated from NTU Mechanical Engineering will be happy for a 2.2k starting pay.
about 4 yrs latter,Today, imagine your annual increment is about 7%,and some promotion at 10% increment.
You will only get about 3.3k NOW.
I switched to Software field 2 yrs ago, just slightly peanutly better..
engineers are going to be retrenched, what good is there remembering ??
Pay at the end of the day is subjective.
Be happy and live a fulfilling life. 🙂
I’m not gonna be bothered about my low pay anymore.