The next time you hear the word “locals”, tell yourself it actually means “PRs and citizens”.
Similarly, “foreigners” means “foreigners who are non-PRs”.
Locals aren’t all Singapore citizens, and foreigners don’t include PRs. Confusing?
In yet another good example of the locals-foreigners confusion, the Manpower Ministry has proclaimed in its Labour Market 2009 report that “there were 1,053,500 foreigners forming 35.2% of total employment in December 2009″ (italics are mine).
By “foreigners”, the ministry is of course referring to “foreigners who are non-PRs”. The foreigners who are PRs are not included in the 1,053,500 count. Instead, they are lumped together with citizens in the “locals” group. It’s only on page 57 of the report that you get a clear and unambiguous statement on this:
“a local (also known as resident) employee is any Singapore citizen or Permanent Resident who is employed…” (emphasis mine).
So exactly how many non-citizens are there in our workforce? I don’t know.
But to get an idea of how many non-citizens are in our workforce – i.e. foreigners who are not citizens regardless of whether they are PRs or not – we have to do some calculations. (Heck, are they testing our maths?)
According to that MOM report, there are 1,053,500 non-PR foreigners and 1,936,500 citizens+PRs in our workforce.
Next, according to Singstat, there are 533,200 PRs. Let’s conservatively estimate that 50% of these PRs are active in our workforce. We shall cross-check* this ratio shortly.
This means: out of the 1,936,500 “locals”, 266,600 are PRs.
1,936,500 – 266,600 = 1,669,900
So, our workforce consists of 1,669,900 citizens, 266,600 PRs and 1,053,500 non-PR foreigners.
Add up the latter two and we have 1,320,100 non-citizens.
This is a hefty 44% of our workforce of 2.99 million. Ta-da.
44% of our workforce are non-citizens!
* Let’s cross-check the 50% employment estimate with that of citizens: out of the 3.2m Singapore citizens, 1.6699m are in the workforce as calculated above. This is already 52%. If anything, we should use a higher estimate for PRs. Don’t tell me PRs have more dependents than citizens – if they do, we should question why we are granting PR status to so many economically inactive foreigners.
Do you feel there are more than 44% non-citizens around you at work?
106 Comments
PB : to be clear we are talking about 2 different groups of Singaporeans.
One very small group businessmen, entrepreneurs or talented Singaporeans that could be reluctant or unwilling to venture out.
However you may have answered yourself when you said that Singapore is way ahead of most other countries and nobody wants to go to another country and be a foreigner with little rights.
Talents should move to areas of opportunities and vibrant economies – Singapore, HK, London, NY etc.
In any case this small group of elites are not what we need to talk about or worry about.
Our problem lies with the larger majority of capable Singaporeans that are being displaced or forced to compete with developing country wages.
The question is should these capable Singaporeans be forced out of Singapore because we need to keep wages low with open floodgate of foreigners?
Let’s forget for a moment that Singaporeans are one of the most indebted people in the world because of housing loans.
My point is that we do not have to be forced to compete on costs.
Unlike some people who sprouts nonsense on what they don’t know about I’m speaking from my own experience.
I’m not talking about indiscriminately raising everyone’s wages without justification.
I’m talking about not importing another foreigner if we already have the local talent.
In my career I’ve been constantly been challenged about why I’m putting my operation in Singapore.
I’ve always been able to make my justifications on numbers and value propositions.
So what if my team was slightly more expensive than if I were to move to a developing country?
My team has consistently been one of the best performing outfit around.
We are respected regionally and globally within the company.
Do you want to know who are the people losing their jobs?
Short sighted people like my ex-boss who is a one trick pony when it comes to selling Singapore as a low cost center of operations by employing cheap foreigners.
The irony it must be when the company turned around and told him that he was too expensive.
Some people think that talking about wage costs means that they are fit to manage a business.
I’m telling you that competing on cost is like a competition to see who can swallow the poison pill the fastest.
You are wrong.
There is less than 10% locals in Barclays Capital Singapore.
Most of them are from Philippines, India.
Very few PRC.
middleclass,
I seriously hope that your case can be easily replicated across all companies in SG, but my hunch is that chance of sucess is rather minute.
SG is in a situation where we have to decide fast and decisively. Do we move up the value chain or do we continue to compete on costs? SG’s economy based on Manufacturing n Financials. Like it or not, SG limited local pool of Talents are insufficient to fill all these biz.
(and to digress a little, classification of FTs are a tough and tricky issue. Indian IT experts and Indian HDB Estates Cleaners can be both FTs)
Even increasing salaries for Fund managers, Doctors, Scientists, Hairdressers, Chefs willnot raise the number of qualified SG talents in such occupations over a short period of time. There will be more engineers, life sciences, finance, chefs, fine arts graduates overtime, but key is how many of these will be truly talented?
(i doubt Middleclass or many forumers here can be easily replicated amongst your SG peers)
Stopping FTs, Increasing FT Taxes, Raising Locals Wages or having more regulation all adds to higher costs of business and indirectly higher costs of living. Ask any Mgmt folks in construction, F&B, Manufacturing, Logistics and many other biz if they think their setup is not reliant on FTs. Even ourselves are reliant on FTs, we have PH or ID FTs as domestic helpers, IN HDB cleaners, CH construction workers, MY cooks/hairdressers, PH nurses, EU professionals, lecturers, scientists, researchers….
Substituition will continue to be a viable solution for talent scarce SG. And in my view, the problem we are facing is not FT substituition of Local Talent per se, but rather how SG is going to change our position in the current climate.
Remove them and replace with local talents. Sure, but how many Locals are truly capable of
Remove them and replace with local talents. Sure, but how many Locals are truly capable of providing the same service standards or productivity levels?
Im a supporter of market capitalism, because it brings growth. However, I also agree with socialism, that we need to provide social security and welfare for the masses esp the underpriviledge. The paradox here is both systems do not coexist in harmony. So something has to give.
Are we SG prepared for higher costs of living, i.e higher taxes to supplement welfare system? End of the day, its an SG issue, taxing FTs is not a complete solution.
Neither is shaking up the whole system a viable one, unless one has a set of concrete and practical alternatives. True enough, CEOs and Mgmt should be responsible for poor performances, but they should not be hung in a witchhunt over a slipup. Afterall, where are the “truly talented” who had left the organisation, complaining of stifling culture, and are found in swanky offices drawing huge paychecks while penning critisms and personal attacks behing the veil of anonymity?
You are missing the point here, nobody says that we should send all of them back, but what we are saying is, to make it fair for everyone, regardless of what country you are from. Right now, we are losing out on cost plainly because we need to support us and our family’s cost of living in Singapore. While FTs can afford to ask for less but still support their family in their own country, this is what we are unable to do. If you live all by yourself, so be it, but there are countless Singaporeans out there who needs to support their family. If you have dependants in your home, you will understand what I mean.
Any visit to the doctors for my mum/dad will easily cost $200-300. Food/utilities/transport per month for a family of 5 with 2 elderlys, 1 married couple and a son will easily hit a 2000-3000 anyday. Don’t tell me about eating cheaper food/ walking instead of taking public transport. The reason why we’re paying these monkeys millions of dollars are to make sure we are able to enjoy the standards of living they have created. However, this does not seem to be the case. Ask yourself, how many people out there can actually enjoy their life with the cost of living in Singapore, if there are alot, then there won’t be so many Singaporeans in Malaysia’s Carrefour or City Square every weekend.
Singapore is a business friendly country, in fact, it’s so accomodating that the government will sacrifice the livelihood of their citizens just to make companies set up here.
As I said, we do not want them to send everyone of the FTs back straight away, but at least take into account the fact that most of the born and bred citizens here have their family in Singapore, thus there is no way we can survive with the salary offered to foreigners.
You said we are facing a talent scarce in Sg. So, let them come, we are basically fine with it. we can work together, but, on equal terms and on our terms. Not on their terms, lower salary, working saturday and sunday.
Nobody is complaining that Goodyear was originally taking over Temasek, we know that because he is experienced in handling big corporations, in fact, we were so happy that LoserH was going to be replaced, Why? Mainly because we know it’s value adding, he can bring temasek to the next level. Taking that as a comparison, we do not mind a better person taking our jobs, since wealth creates wealth, they would help the company expand and create more jobs. But replacing us just because they’re cheaper? That’s the whole issue here.
Jeff : excellent post.
If I may also add that by all accounts we seems to have quite a few successful managers in this forum.
What I have done is nothing unique or extraordinary.
I have had to, and continue to be questioned and listen to every ignorant and short sighted people on why Singapore is too expensive because Singaporeans are liabilities, not competitive, pampered etc.
On and on like broken records that no, no, no, cost, cost, cost, can’t be done, shouldn’t be done, forget about it etc.
Yet I continue to show everyone in my company that even for a cost center like IT we can justify our premium existence in Singapore.
It takes a little conviction and hard work, sticking your neck out and trusting that you are doing the right thing.
I can only hope and urge that the decision makers here choose the right decisions when it comes to what’s best for Singaporeans and Singapore, your families, yourselves and your children.
I’m also determined to exercise my right and responsibility to make the right choice in the coming election if i’m given the chance.
The number of foreigners in Singapore has really reached a boiling point level. They’re crowding every place: from MRTs to housing estates. My condo seems like its not in Singapore but in India, as it is full of Indians. And I’m not sure why the focus is on low wage workers. It is the PMETs who are suffering the brunt of this foreigner onslaught.
I’m a well qualified PMET. However, I was let go from my job. Now, I have been looking for a job for over 3 months now, but have not found anything satisfactory. Meanwhile I see the foreigners being hired in droves in good positions. Especially people from India. They are really taking all the high end, well paying and challenging jobs here. I have nothing against them, but really, in which developed country would you see foreigners being so openely welcomed to the job market, especially in times like these.
I’ve started to think that now Singapore government only cares about GDP growth numbers, whether it is from Singaporeans or foreigners.
@Dogg: Your comments are really stupid. We have the right to question policies that affect our jobs and income. I see so many jobless Singaporeans and employed foreigners that it’s not funny.
Chill, everyone is entitled to their own comments, as no matter who the comment is from. It is worth listening to, if not, we will be just like this government here, narrow mind, tunneled vision with a one way traffic. Every comment should be taken as a way to look at ourselves and to reflect ourselves.
I am not exactly affected by this FT intrusion in Singapore as I’m in audit line, we’re all paid the same regardless of being Singaporeans/foreigners. Thus my view here is mostly derived from observation of pple around me and in avenues like this.
dogg & adiemuso comments are true to some extent, the market still need low cost labour to survive. However, one thing you need to take note of, are the companies taking in the low cost foreigners because they need to? or just because they’re cheaper so they take advantage or it, if thats the case, then they are betraying the purpose of importing low wage workers here.
Another thing, companies which sets up office here, if they practise cronyism, and only employs pple from their own country. Why do we even allow them to set up business here? They only come here because of the security and the infrastructure. But Singaporeans are the ones who serve NS and protect Singapore from harm & thus their business. Then why is the government doing nothing to protect these Singaporeans from unfair policies?
MIddleclass,
so what are ur solutions? apart from doing what u believe, and insisting in believing what u had experienced is going to be good for every single Singaporean, what do you wish to see a change in SG if you have a choice to say?
I do not see any solutions apart from your sharing of your own personal experience and “grudges”
Jeff,
I think if you really meant what you had said about being open and allowing different views to be heard, you should have gotten my drift.
I strongly believe tat actions speak louder than words. And i do not believe in dissenting for the sake of dissent. Similarly, I have witnessed and read too many cases of the suppresed revolting to only becoming the next oppressor. Sometimes it is hard to believe that people can truly think and behave for the sake of the commonwealth. Call me a realist, i believe everyone lives to advance or at least secures his own survival.
Though there are some flaws in the current system, but in all fairness, i still prefer this to many others i.e corruption, outrite discrimination, racism, high taxes to fund social welfare. Of course, if we can have the best of everything, pure Utopian at best!
Throughout history, rotten systems crumbled, get overthrown, experience tumultous evolution and finally stability. Only similarity between all societies is conflict and chaos for the common people who are in fact rather indifferent but are somehow stirred into revolutionary actions.
Thus my point is, do not start a fire out of nothing, for a fire might spin out of control and burn everything down. And most of the time, the innocent bystanders are the ones getting hurt most.
This issue of FTs, we all knoe is not as simple as we make it to be, the implications and repercussions are far wider than what you and i could possibly think. It might not only be the top who are responsible, sometimes its the people around that perpetuates this malfunction! As long as people are self serving, biz and organisations will be so, hence the endless pursuit of profits and self gains will only lead to exploitation.
What we should ask is how do we neutralise or nullify such possible negativities and not conveniently push the blame to some easy target.
I shall end here.
adiemuso : wow, so basically you are saying that my experience does not matter?
After all the posts you have just dismissed everything that i’ve said and twisted what i’ve been proposing in a few lines?
You have used big words like utopia, capitalism and socialism without really knowing what you are sprouting about.
Your one single argument is that we are just whiners and complainers.
Basically not much different from any other narrow minded and ignorant fools i’ve tried to talk sense to.
Then I shall also end here.
@Boiling Point:
U see many unemployed Singaporeans. and how many of these Singaporeans ever admit that they are jobless due to their own shortcomings. I guess, almost none. Its always the cheap labor, discriminatory policies, etc. And who is firing them. Singaporean bosses who dont care about the flight of fellow citizens who do NS and save the country. If u were a boss, what would u do ?? Maximize ur profits.
Stop thinking of urself as better than foreigners from China, India, etc. Compare the benefits u get from ur govt compare to what people in India, China get from their govts. All you people want is protectionism which is against the philosophy of singapore economy.
@Boiling Point
Are you only whining like this since u lost ur job. Even tho u may think u are exceptional, I assure u that there will be 1000s of people who can replace u. Excellent people are not getting fired even in bad times.
And, good to know that u dont like too many Indians in ur condo. Deep down, maybe u despise people from other races.
If u had not lost ur job, u mite not be posting here too. And when u develop an objective perspective, post again.
middleclass,
my apologies if you misread my post. i respect ur experience and views. but wat is your solution to this issue???
your answer: “It takes a little conviction and hard work, sticking your neck out and trusting that you are doing the right thing.”
“I’m also determined to exercise my right and responsibility to make the right choice in the coming election if i’m given the chance.”
middleclass is an emotional person. while i respect him and countless other singaporeans, they know deep down that there is probably no solution…things can change a bit here n there but there will always be some people who will be pissed off…
the only solution is to put fite n hope to do well as an individual….be in the top 10-20% and not in the remaining 80%….
adiemuso, i see that you want people to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.
however, these problems exist because of failed policies, so we should ask the policy makers to come up with good solutions that make sense to the people.
if i’m paid a few million dollars, have a whole office of scholars and have a media that always agrees with me, i’m sure i can come up with good solutions.
dogg, it seems your solution is to take the bitter medicine, bear with the circumstances and fight to the top. but the circumstances were forced upon the people because of bad policies. maybe another solution is to voice our discontent at the ballot box, so the policy makers can be more careful next time.
if your boss is bad, you can change jobs. if your school is bad, you can attend another school. why do you have to bear with the circumstances if you can change them?
if the leaders are bad, get them out.
sometimes it’s not always your fault. from dogg’s perspective, maybe it is, but for many people, i don’t think it’s _always_ their fault.
its not always people’s fault. but these are the same leaders u were happy with till 2003. and now suddenly, they have become ur enemy. maybe, they just cant do much abt it. ya, please vote them out. i am not a supporter of dynastic politics.
@dogg
you are probably the most emotional whiner here and the first person most readily to comment to this post. Obviously, you have not read or have not understood what the others have been writing. Nobody is pointing fingers at anyone.
But you are criticizing those in plight rather than coming up with solutions that can help both citizens and non-citizens altogether. Simply, just a little selfish coward afraid of policies changes that will alter your own standard of living. You are the kind of people that hinders social integration that we have made a big mistake in importing in the first place. I really question how much sales you bring in, cost you save and productivity you generate for Singapore versus the grief to bring to the nation.
mandate,
i think otherwise. what is good about being cynical n critical and not constructive about issues that matters to not only the policy makers but also you and me?
when you see a car’s windows being smashed while parked in your condo’s carpark, what do you do? shrug and pass some remarks, anyway, there are disclaimers and signs around saying its not the mgmt’s fault and if there is any responsibility the mgmt should do something abt it. they are paid for it, not me.
i truly believe that if we do have feasible and practical ideas to solve issues, we should voice it out and let it have its way to the relevant policy makers. Ranting abt “show me the $$$”, “its your job” are not constructive.
Man like Tan Kin Lian, came out to voice his concerns and offer real solutions regarding the minibonds and other issues. That is what I would call constructivity.
That is what SG should be heading towards. Open and objective discussions, not emotional outbursts and antagonistic remarks.
ok, i’ll try. how about this:
1. invest in education. with the 4th uni, they are headed in the right direction. this is long term. productivity gains won’t be noticeable in the near future.
2. invest in work-life balance. give incentives to promote family life. less stress at work. more time at home. more babies will follow.
3. if 2 is successful, they can then better regulate the flow of foreign labour.
4. promote free discussions. free the media to comment constructively on policies, and not just always blindly support all policies. maybe get a senior editor to start writing about the current ground sentiments. without repercussions.
with 4 alone, you will get lots of ideas for solutions. students – our future pillars – will also grow up in a less stifling environment (did your teacher or parents ever ask you to stop criticizing the government in public?) and not grow up to become yes-men yes-women. they will learn how to think out of the box and perhaps some of them will join the league of bill gates, steve jobs and larry page.
5. telecast live all parliament discussions (again). we want to see our MPs in action and will evaluate their performance with our own eyes. opposition members also get a chance to show singaporeans that they have constructive ideas and are not troublemakers who need to be fixed.
ok i tried. the next thing i hope _not_ to hear is: “now go stand for election to prove you walk the talk”!
tks..dun worry i wont ask u to go stand for election..its more complicated than what we think it is..besides talking is very different from walking…but i do appreciate your wonderful efforts!
your point 5 is interesting…dedicate a channel whereby ppl can assess the full debate on tv or demand on line..there is a difference between reading prints and watching real images..sometimes i really wan to watch a little more indepth about the sessions but find that its really hard to find or access them..
I think there is a need for a much open discussion of issues and restrain from appearing over elitist or paternalistic when it comes to regulations and such. We are all in a very different world now, education levels and demographic makeups are very different from 1960s. And IT and globalisation have made all these differences even greater.
As far as im concerned, educated ppl are not contented to be told n ordered around. There is a need and desire to be engaged and having opportunities to excel and be challenged.
idealism apart, the immediate problem of widening income gap and FT needs to be solved or at least alleviated.
First, provide full funding for children from poor backgrounds. That will alleviate alot of financial pressures for the poorer families. It is not welfare, in my view, it is long term investment. In a way it can be structured as a benefit as long as the parents are willing to undergo training n upgrading and be gainfully employed, the kids education should be borne by the state. Govt school fees are not expensive anyway, thats the official stand. so why not subsidise full for the poorer SG?
Second, have a tougher screening on FTs. Do scrutinise more carefully before stamping on visas or workpasses. Be more generous and creative with the carrots for employers to employ Locals over low costs FTs. govt agencies and GLCs should walk the talk too, give chances for locals to rise up to managerial posts.
adiemuso,
I love your 2 suggestions but I believe those are what Jeff and middleclass have already been recommending.
I’m not taking anyone’s sides but it seems you are playing 2 sides. The 2 recommendations that you have provide will definitely drive costs up, which you are vehemently against.
passerby,
do you like the suggestions?
adiemuso: incredible that you are still asking what my suggestions after so many posts.
I have repeatedly stated that we don’t have to and shouldn’t have to be forced to compete on costs.
There are many other competitive advantages that Singapore have that we can sell on.
There is no need to import foreigners when we already have capable Singaporeans locally.
I have worked in a few top MNCs and now sits on the region management team.
I have visibility on the region and across other regions plus i know how decisions are being considered and taken.
I would like to think that i do know a little of what i’m suggesting from my first hand experience.
You on the other hand seems to be fixated on just lower costs and salaries.
You seems to believe that Singapore will collapse if we put controls in place.
Maybe you could educate me from your actual experience avoiding any catchphrases like capitalism or socialism on why you believe companies will abandon Singapore if we refuse to import foreigners to depress wages.
Which companies will leave if they cannot employ a cheap foreign master degree to do a job that a local diploma or bachelor degree can do?
Why do you think other competitive factors do not matter?
In any case cost is something the govt should be responsible – our public housing is the single most expensive cost on most Singaporeans.
It’s pretty insulting to our intelligence to be told that 30 years loans are affordable for 99 years leases and foreigners don’t affect prices.
Most Singaporeans will not have enough money for retirement and are one major illness away from disaster.
How’s that for progress?
Dogg: now you respect me and countless other Singaporeans??
What happened to the whole hateful bigoted post about ‘you Singaporeans’???
middleclass,
cool it. i have never doubted your experience. Im sure you have what you claimed.
but, have you ever have the chance to really talk to your board of directors or really understand where they are coming from? do not assume, thats what i have been taught by many successful leaders.
in the business world, it all boils down to dollars and cents. tell me which company in the world have no regard about spiralling costs? unless, like i have mentioned, the future rewards are projected to be greater than costs or they are strategically or tactically tied down here. competitive advantage, those are terms which are highly subjective and sometimes unquantifiable.
and, SG economy is not jux about MNCs which can absorb rising costs, there are many other players that run on tight margins as well. and remember MNCs are not obligated to stay in SG forever. Im not too sure about all your top MNCs that you ahve been. do you noe how hard our EDB/Govt have been working to have these MNCs staying here?
cost is something that has to be considered not only by the govt but oso the private sectors. they can take the lead, but ultimately it boils down to the coffeeshop owners who decide to hire an auntie for 800 or a FT for 500, the SMEs who needs to balance their bks and decision hinges on hiring local ITE grads at 1500 or FTs at 1000, the graphic designers who can hire a NAFA local grad at 2,000 instead of a FT at 1,500 and the banks who can hire Indian MBAs over local NUS,NTU,SMU,SIM grads with passes with merits.
Tell me how do you as a country manager decide? do you balance your books or fulfill the national duty? Tough isnt it.
costs do not matter?
when you go hungry, you realise ideals cannot be eaten. but before you were hungry, when you were full and satisfy, you thought ideals matter more than mere bread n butter.
not all SG are lucky as u, working in top MNCs and i assume having a comfortable life. many are struggling and if you have the empathy or even sympathy, you will probably realise, what they need are not ideals but solid plans that deliver three meals and a shelter for themselves and their dependents.
though our system might not be perfect, which i fuly agree with you, what you are appearing to be trying to do seems to me is a very dangerous game of walking along a very thin line. and i am as a fellow professional, feeling very upset that you are having such thoughts. but at the same time, am glad that you are not a policy maker.
i shall post no further comments on this issue here anymore.
my sincerest apologies if i had upset anyone.
adiemuso: again twisting my words and dismissing my points.
When did i said cost does not matter?
You wrote 2 posts and rant round and round and still comes back basically saying that you think salaries cost will ruin businesses.
Do you even understand what is the total cost of doing business?
Talk to my board of directors?
That just confirmed for me that you know nothing about how corporations runs.
Let me give you a clue – when business decides where to setup their operations salaries are seldom in their strategic planning unless the business depends on slave labours.
Yes I’m easily in the top 10% of Singaporeans doing very well but unlike you i’m not so selfish to think that i’ve made it so screw all those poor bastards crushed under the wheels.
I’m also not so short sighed to ignore the harm that the policies will bring to the nation and our children.
Dollars and cents are very important for a business as you mentioned adiemuso. There are always forms of cutting down these dollars and cents, be it from less wastage of resources, or streamlining of processes, the methods of controlling dollars and cents exist. The wrong method of doing this is using the hiring and firing process to manipulate short range profitability of a company. There are many who have done so, ending up having to pay more for people to return to their original position or even worse, having to hire someone with less knowledge.
MNCs are not the only companies hiring. As much prestige there is tagged to an MNC, how many people well off do you know that are not complaining about an MNC. Singapore ranges as a top business destination in the World. No one doubts that. As mentioned before, I reiterate one way we can try to improve our current policy.
What I believe in is applying a “Social Tax” to expats. The form is to inform that the person coming to the country is effectively taking over the position of a citizen who can or may be qualified for the same position. Hence, there is a social effect of having the expat in Singapore. This can be a fair method of applying a higher social control of who is allowed to enter Singapore as well, allowing for greater scrutiny of expatriate inflows. Here we can control the range of expats that are beneficial to the country. As well, the “Social Tax” can serve as a cushion for those retrenched.
All in all, when we look at the crisis that we are emerging from, the question begets that difficult times call for difficult measures.
PB, what were the difficult measures? the relentless import of foreigners started way before the crisis.
middleclass:
i felt that i shd be a little compassionate to the plight of many singaporeans. but u r rite. i should not be. just bcus u r having a bad time now, u have taken this tone. so i wont respect u or singaporeans anymore. hope that makes u happy. if u insult u , u dont like it. if i take a step back and act decent, u act surprized. BYE
dogg: there is no such thing as a compassionate bigot.
Bigots are mostly dumb but you are right down there on the stupid pole.
Now you are turning into a hypocrite and accusing Boiling Point of despising people of other race.
Obviously you failed reading comprehension but to be fair I went back and read his post a few times.
Guess what – BP did not mentioned anything about blaming Indians or any foreigners.
He was stating an observation that is hardly false and pointing at the policy makers.
It’s the same that if I say that I noticed nowadays a lot of Tagalog being spoken in my office lifts and Chinese being spoken in the services lines that does not mean that I despise the Filipino or Chinese foreigners.
Just stating the facts.
Also when i say that the duty of the elected Singapore govt is to take of it’s citizens first does not mean that I am xenophobic or advocating persecution of foreigners.
Just stating the facts.
Lastly when I say that you are a flip flopping, hypocritical, dumb bigot it’s not an insult.
Just stating the facts.
U r rite. and i am glad that better educated filipinos n chinese are getting jobs which singaporeans cannot do. U can keep whining and live in ur pseudo world where u think how Objective, Reasonable, Fair and Intelligent u are. Ya BP is stating the fact but u can see the underlying tone which clearly states that he would rather not want to see 80% indians in his condo. How many Racists ever admit they are Racists. BP is one of them. Clearly u sympathize with him since he is one of u. Common cause unites u people.
Elderly in singapore are not productive. Thats a fact too. So, screw them, is it ?? U need tact even if u r stating the fact.
admin : i was busy in morning and wanted to respond to the racist and seditious remarks that the bigoted Dogg made.
But i realised that it had been altered and removed.
Frankly i find that very disturbing and dishonest that you could do this.
That means anything that I write can also be changed and altered to your whim?
This is the last post I will make here and the last visit I will have to your site.
Good bye.
comeon, i apologize if it sounded bad. i did not mean that. i will refrain from any more posting here. i am Sorry.
question – Was a little unclear. I meant that difficult measures have to be taken as we emerge from this crisis.
Dear middleclass, I seldom edit the comments posted in this site (spams are always deleted in whole). I edited Dogg’s comment (#83) and subsequently the quote in your comment (#84) because I find that statement really offensive. I did not edit anything else.
Some belated comments.
Generally, I am aligned adiemuso’s comments except for this one.
#47: I don’t think Singapore salaries are peanuts compared to salaries of similar economy. It may be true that fresh graduates in Singapore earn significantly lesser than the fresh graduates of other supposedly equal economies, but peanuts convey a different meaning.
Generally, I find the arguments that foreigners come in to depress local wages a little weak. Consider a general-level opening. If there are sufficient foreigners to depress the wage, there will eventually be incentives for the business to locate near to where the foreigners are (i.e., outside Singapore). We can cite a lot of intangible and other cost advantages associated with Singapore but we all know labour cost is the most significant factor for knowledge economies and Singapore is never going to be the main market for most businesses (except for finance).
I may be a little myopic in my global perspectives having only worked in companies listed on NYSE but I do read the economist from time to time. In that scheme of things, operating costs are mainly controlled by the number of people and their wages, and hence hiring-firing is nearly always a preferred solution, despite what they might say. I have heard that Japan business strategy is different as well as those private unlisted companies who do not need to bow to the shareholders’ pressure of being profitable quarter after quarter.
> there will eventually be incentives for the business to locate near to where the foreigners are
singapore also offers other benefits like good infrastructure, stable political system (despite all the kinks you know what i mean), extremely pro-business government, and other conveniences and efficiencies in every aspect of doing business.
so it’s not so easy to just relocate the business to where the cheap foreigners are – the other countries may not offer those non-wage benefits that singapore offers. the last thing you want is to spend money relocating and then find yourself having to write off the investment (recent example: google shutting its search services in China).
Admin,
Perhaps you could also do an article on the quality of non-citizens that we are getting, using Dogg as an example. That would bring out some transparency.
It seems the media is only interested in positioning the postive qualities of non-citizens. I’m kind of nervous with all the non-citizens being discontent and offensive about citizens in my own country.
don’t be nervous. tell your family and friends about the government’s foreign thrash policy and the lousy media. tell them to vote for the opposition in the next election to voice their discontent, REGARDLESS of the quality of the opposition. this will give a wake up call.
If you go to China, you will notice though bad habits like spitting on the sidewalk may still irk some people, its infrastructure and customer-facing services are very efficient. With the market and shareholder’s pressure to have something tangible to say about China during investors’ meeting, and most importantly, being the world’s biggest market, there is really no good reason to locate anywhere else. We lose to China not on cost, but just on market size alone.
India is a slightly different case with a different sets of problems but here, we lose entirely on the scale of operations.
Let me switch gear and go more personal. I worked in a managerial job that have a very wide pay range, maybe being paid more like around the average. I can see why smaller or more adventurous companies will see no need to hire someone like me simply because of cost, despite the additional experience I can bring to the table. At the same time, I could be lucky and get a good pay increment because some of my niche experience that fills the need of the managerial position that they are looking for.
If you go back to policies and planning, generally the government is doing the right thing, e.g., prioritization on niches, productivity, stimulating innovation, immigrant policies. Sure, at the detailed level, there is always room for tuning, adjustments and improvements, especially when the policy is adapted from foreign best practices.
Hence, I think, if there are suggestions, I would be looking at more detailed level suggestion and not broad strokes, like improve work-life balance to increase local population. The problem with the latter is that it assumes work-life balance is the critical factor to having kids and it takes very long to see if it works.
Having led initiatives to establish global governance framework within a company, we always appear too slow for our constituents to set up rules which seem natural. Having been on this side, I can share that rule-setting is hard. It needs to satisfy most constituents, improve the top and/or bottom-line and not make too many other aspects worst off. And you cannot keep changing the rules, because after a while, it gives an impression that you do not know what you are doing and will lose people’s trust.
Anyway, since I am not being paid “obscene” salary, here is one detailed level suggestion. I think Singapore does have a big market in financial services. This is one area where our nearest genuine competitor in Hong Kong is too close to China policies makers for some people’s comfort. We also have good hinterland market from Malaysia’s spillover Islamic banking. Not to mention the political stability compared against the surrounding faster developing countries, who need a place to park their money.
Hence, we can choose to have tighter foreign talent policy in the financial services sector. For example, we can strive for a better ratio of local (pink IC) to foreigner in the banking operations, and have tertiary education to contribute more directly to the staffing of these jobs. The escalating cost is not such a big risk here, because there is really little other choice and we can aim to be close enough but higher than Hong Kong and at near parity to other financial centers like London, New York and Switzerland (Geneva?).
So, what are some of the downsides? First, financial services is already perceived as a highly paid sector so increasing this group of people’s wage will not be welcomed by people not in the group. So, implementation is going to be really hard at the ground level. Second, even if we do succeed, we would most likely end up having too large of our bet in financial services. If there is a financial meltdown, it will be even more severe for the economy than it already was recently.
A different way to think about implementation is that we already have a large number of financial jobs available, and over-time, we expect that the local numbers to eventually catch up relatively to that of foreign talents (maybe, when these folks become citizens! ha!). If this is true, we are better off letting social evolution takes care of itself rather than through manual intervention. Laissez-faire often appears to work better for economy, because manual intervention is nearly always late and has a relatively long lag before we can see the results.
To the local educated bumpkin who said that we should be proud that “Singapore has achieved in 40 years what Switzerland took 100 years to achieve”, like so many other NUS/NTU-educated frogs in the well, you haven’t stepped onto Switzerland or out of Singapore for more than 2 weeks for that matter.
Singapore has certainly NOT achieved even 10% of what Switzerland has. Switzerland despite its relatively smaller size to its neighbours, is resistant from the effects of globalisation and cheaper emerging economies taking over low-skill industries unlike Singapore.
While SIngapore is desperately still playing catch up by trying to develop some high skill economies like biotech, life sciences and green technology (and failing and trailing compared to first world countries), Switzerland is an unimpenetrable fortress of not only high-skill, but super niche and elite-skill domains firmly entrenched and tied to its brand-name from premium mechanical watch-making, upscale chocolates to super high-end banking.
You can’t even recognise this because you’ve been stuck here all your life, in this little insular island. The biggest investment any parent can make for his child is to send his children overseas so he does not become another toad here.
The Swiss are also famous for its hospitality higher education of learning.The list goes on.
Amused – I would really like to know how you managed to come up with all of that through what I said.
Have you even lived in Switzerland?
too many immigrants?
watch pm gordon brown debate 2 excellent opposition front runners on the best ways to manage the issue of immigration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk5HvJmy_yg#t=4m30s
note that david cameron complained “it’s too much” to have 2million net immigrants across a DECADE. (population of uk is 60million).
Pingback: We Are Wealthier Than Switzerland | Salary.sg - Your Salary in Singapore
Pingback: We Are Wealthier Than Switzerland | Support Site for The Unemployed
Pingback: Too many foreigners in Singapore? - Salary.sg Forums