Your Citizenship is Worth $4,511 More Than a PR Per Year
October 31st, 2009
According to our calculations, your citizenship is worth $4,511 more than permanent residents per year. For that, you have to serve NS if you are male, and watch some of your PR friends sell their HDBs for a good profit and then return to their (sometimes) cheaper home countries to enjoy retirement.
As a Singapore citizen, here’s what you enjoy (reference: ST, 24 Oct 2009 online link):
- Child birth. If you stay in a Class B2+ ward, you pay $475. For PR, it’s $506, which is $31 more. The average Singapore woman has about 1 child and will thus get the $10,000 baby bonus (we ignore the fact that she will have to split the bonus with her husband). Spread over 20 years of providing for the child, the baby bonus amounts to $500 per year. Total child birth benefit: $31 + $500 = $531/yr.
- Childcare subsidy. Singaporean working mum gets a $300/mth subsidy while PRs get nothing. Total childcare benefit: $3,600/yr.
- School fees. PRs pay $2,884 more than Singaporeans per child for the 16 years of education all the way to university. This is $180/yr.
- Marriage fees. Insignificant.
- Housing. Though PRs are not eligible to buy new flats, many Singaporeans also do not buy new flats. Since both citizens and PRs are eligible to buy resale flats, for ease of comparison, we will treat housing benefit as insignificant. [Added 1 Nov: Married citizens enjoy a $30k-$40k grant, while singles can get $11k-$20k. Spread over the long term of owning a home, say over 30 years, this is about $666/yr per person in addition to the $4,511 calculated previously, making a total of $5,177/yr. Thanks to the reader who highlighted this.]
- Health subsidies. Citizens get about 10% more subsidy than PRs. Assuming that an average citizen spends $20k over 10 years, this 10% difference amounts to $200/yr.
Grand total: $4,511 per year. Note that if you’re single, it would be just $200 per year.
No wonder the ST reporter Zakir Hussain said “the distinctions between citizens and PRs could not have been clearer.”
Do you think your citizenship should be worth a lot more?
fcb Says:
October 31st, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Unless you think that a Singaporean woman giving birth requires more talent than a non-Singaporen woman giving birth, I guess 3600$ is a good enough incentive.
I cannot understand why people think that being born in Singapore entitles them to a better life than people who work hard to reach a place like Singapore. Singapore does not grant PRs to undeserving candidates. They are generally above average in terms of either educational background or economic background. Hence, to attract talented foreigners, Singapore must be attractive. So, what is the problem in a PR having the same benefits as a citizen. How is it fair for a smarted PR to live a life worse than a dumber Singaporean ?? I still believe that in a case of a PR and a Singaporean with exactly that same talent, the Singaporean will have an edge in terms of opportunities.
2 years of NS is required. But to become a PR, a few years of residency, sharing accommodations, compromising on luxuries, not to mention hard work is required. PRs do not do NS but they have struggled their way through to reach a point where Singapore is glad to give them a PR. So, to ignore a PR’s effort is equivalent to insulting his/her existance.
In a global economy, people should realize that passport alone cannot ensure a good life. Singaporeans are born with better opportunities and infrastructures , and should make use of them to achieve a better life. Its actually the underachievers in Singapore who whine about topics such as these. Such people should have been born in Scandinavia.
The reason why many PR leave Singapore is bcus they realize that Singapore is not the best option for them. I am sure if a Singaporean gets a chance to study at Oxford, he/she wont even consider NUS/NTU.
In short, I believe that Singaporeans already have enough support from their Govt. They should make the best use of the opportunities they have and achieve a good life. If you do all the work Singapore needs to compete globally, Singapore wont need PRs. But until then, give PRs a good life too, bcus they deserve it. And perhaps, deserve it more than a lot of Singaporeans.
zyy Says:
October 31st, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Zhang Yuan Yuan studied in a private institute here for 2 years before becoming a Chinese language teacher at Julia Gabriel.
She got her PR really quick, just within 2-3 months after application.
Of course, like what fcb said, she’s a deserving talent compared to all the silly dumb Singaporeans.
Quit complaining and migrate to Scandinavia.
fcb Says:
October 31st, 2009 at 2:12 pm
i love Sarcasm.
ok, Zhang Yuan Yuan is not a super asset to Singapore. but, then blame your Singaporean ICA who still think that she is needed in your country. She mite be earning 2-3k a month, traveling in the mrt, sharing an accommodation with other people. go ahead, take that away from her too. tax her 1500 SGD for being born in china or indonedia, and subsidize a singaporean. i wonder why no singaporean took that teaching job. either they are too good for that job or not good enough.
Singaporean Says:
October 31st, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Come on, don’t always count the dollars.
Singaporeans also benefit from having the red passports, their voting rights, and the rights to speak at Speakers’ Corner and to form political parties.
zyy Says:
October 31st, 2009 at 2:24 pm
Voting rights? You joking or what?
To fcb: Ok, I will blame my Singaporean ICA. But anyone would agree that no other country in the world is more foreigner friendly than Singapore which has more than one-third of its population comprising of foreigners and PR. Don’t compare with NYC, as we’re not a city, regardless of what the law minister said recently.
And contrary to what you said, many of these PRs are not really highly talented. They got the jobs because they are cheap. Old uncles and aunties working as cleaners are gradually being replaced by these cheaper foreign talent.
If you’re a white-collar professional, it’s harder for you to see the magnitude of this issue unless you personally know people who are squeezed at the lower echelons.
Of course, the other possibility is that you can’t be bothered because you are a beneficiary of Singapore’s overly generous foreign talent policy.
fcb Says:
October 31st, 2009 at 2:53 pm
ok, i understand your point. but maybe instead of calling a PR cheap, we should look at the greed of employers [capitalistic greed], who hire an outsider for low pay instead of a singaporean for slightly higher pay. its a world wide trend now.
i do agree that not all PRs or foreigners are talented. its the same everywhere, even in the US. a cheap PR mite just be a person born in poverty trying to make a better life. u really think anyone dreams to be a cleaner in Singapore.
Corporate greed and ICA’s policies may be responsible, but is it fair to blame the PR. afterall, a PR is not doing something that is Illegal. maybe, its unfair to a singaporean, but its legal.
i am not a PR. i studied in NUS for Phd but took a job elsewhere. but i always consider Singapore as a place to live bcus its really nice. i have stayed in singapore on a small scholarhip for 5 years, rented a room, treated like an atm by rich landlords who whined about 10-20 dollars. it happens everywhere in the world but i think i shd at least have the same chance at life that a person born in Singapore has. else, why would i want to live in singapore. thus, i feel Singapore should a policy to attract foreigners.
to zyy Says:
October 31st, 2009 at 3:10 pm
What possessed you to believe that Singapore is not a city? Are you like some villager or something?
And why do NTU students all have disgraceful diction? And they were supposed to be ‘graduates’ of some communication course that prepares students for journalism..hahhaa..i just watched the RazorTv website you guys have and heard the diction of some of your so-called graduates, who sound like mainlanders, but unlike the mainlanders, isn’t the ability to speak English what you claim to be your trump card? I mean most of you can’t speak good Mandarin and write good Chinese either like the Chinese and Taiwanese or speak Cantonese or write Chinese like the Hongkies..
I think a lot of Singaporeans here are embarrassing, and will not stand a chance in the global stage. The top few elites, those who attended top universities abroad, since there are none here, feel embarrassed but are held back by political correctness to say a word..
I think Singapore is a good place to be in, if we foreigners just hung out with a select group.
singkie Says:
October 31st, 2009 at 3:28 pm
yeah, singkies can’t speak both english and chinese well, at least not eloquent and fluent enough to hold even a small candle to the native speakers- including some of their leadership, political and corporate.
Boss Says:
October 31st, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Bosses like to hire PRs not only because they are cheaper. PRs also don’t have to go for reservist training. And unlike the typical Singaporean, PRs work harder and also complain less. Some bosses especially like single PRs as without family commitments they have no qualms putting in very long hours. Needless to say, they naturally “chiong” less than Singaporeans.
Kojakbt Says:
October 31st, 2009 at 7:27 pm
I’ve compiled a table too detailing the difference in benefits that SG and PR will receive:
http://people.delphiforums.com/R...
If you’re a Singaporean after reading it, you will be very pissed too….
to sinkie Says:
October 31st, 2009 at 10:41 pm
who have you been hanging out with? open your eyes.
housing grant Says:
November 1st, 2009 at 1:09 am
You forgot that citizens enjoy HDB housing grant:
link
Singapore Short Stories Says:
November 1st, 2009 at 8:12 am
We cannot quantify citizenship, the qualitative aspect is much more.
SG Citizenship is worth about $7,503-$10,583 more than PRs a year « Singapore Watch Says:
November 1st, 2009 at 3:59 pm
[...] Citizenship is worth about $7,503-$10,583 more than PRs a year According to salary.sg, they calculate how much the Singapore citizenship is worth over a permanent resident. Their figure [...]
to to sinkie Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 7:02 pm
sinkie’s been hanging out with his fellow singkies. 99% of Singaporeans, especially the donkeys who have stayed in Singapore and studying in its lousy schools all their lives, speak worse English than a 10 year old in America and worse Mandarin than a 10 year old in Taipei.
Even the US Sudoku champ, Tammy McLeod (she took her American husband’s surname) who still holds a Singapore passport but wants to give it up and get a US one, studied in the elite MIT.
Yet the state press here credited her intellectual rigors to her education in RGS and RJC. What a bunch of toads in denial – I asked my Singapore friends and they all vouched that 99% of RGS/RI/RJC students end up in the local universities like their supposed lesser friends from lesser friends.
Every year, close to 20,000 people get a place in local colleges here after A levels, and less than 5 per year make it to MIT.
kojakbt: there’s a glaring error in your list of perks for citizens. You failed to include the HDB grant of $40,000 for first time flat buyers. You simply rattled off a list of prices, from what I see, are resale prices. Second, the cap for grant for first time flat buyers is $8,000 per household, and not $5,000 as you claimed. And admin, you’re insanely wrong when you assumed that many Singaporeans do not make use of the $40k, or do not qualify.
It means that you mix with the ‘richer’ crowd here. There are MANY MANY Singaporeans who make use of the $40k grant.
Many many. It shows not many Singaporeans make beyond $4k by the time they get married. Based on my interaction with them, I can only say how much they make is correlated with the level of their (non-existent) intellect and (low) competency. Sinkies in general, no need to be so Singaporean and find everyone else to blame, from your mother, the dog to the government, for your ill-fate in life.
many many Says:
November 2nd, 2009 at 7:41 pm
does “MANY MANY” include u? u spoke as if u were an MIT-type elite. if that’s the case u don’t even need to be aware of such grants. either that or u’ve been mixing too much with the peasants. tsk tsk tsk. elites should only mix with their kind, and cross-breed among themselves. now get out of my elite uncaring face.
anon Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:18 am
For the foreigners and women,
If I were to impose a tax of you, demanding that you give up TWO YEARS worth of income in excess of $500 a month, how willing would you be to pay it? That TWO YEARS worth of income includes all bonuses, OT pay. That should come up to easily $50k for most.
Then factor in the loss of two years worth of seniority pay that you will miss out for the rest of your working life.
Easily $100k perhaps?
That’s just the tangible cost.
You still get to do whatever you want. You can stop work if you feel like it. You can yell at your boss and not go to prison.
And how about the risks to life and limb? The Singapore government does not take care of the disabled servicemen for life even due to service related injuries. They discharge you from NS, pat their backside and walk away. How do you account for that?
How much more would you demand to be paid if your job comes with serious risks?
And then how do you account for losing 30 days of freedom every year due to reservist trainings?
How do you account for the costs if you want to go overseas to study but MINDEF demands a bond of $100k or more to prevent you from evading NS?
Dont tell me about “struggles” of getting PR. I know of someone who got his PR within 4 months of arriving in Singapore.
In short, women and foreigners, dont make me hate you by belittling our NS sacrifices. It is an expensive tax on Singaporean men that you dont want to pay.
to anon Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:10 pm
sniff sniff… who cares?
Kojakbt Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:51 pm
To Sinkie,
You are mistaken. The data I’ve presented is taken from HDB website. It’s a comparison of Singaporeans buying NEW HDBs in Punggol vs PRs buying HDB resales in the same Punggol town.
Your $40K grant applies to HDB resales, not for New HDBs.
See: http://www100.hdb.gov.sg/09JULBTOPG...
to Kojakbt Says:
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:56 pm
Kojakbt, thanks, your table is most helpful. The benefits of citizens over PR are marginal, which explains why not many want to convert to citizens.
It’s probably long due for policies change to address the growing discontent here. We all recognize this and I’m positive there will be changes to drive clearer distinction between citizens, PR and foreigners.
Negative Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 12:09 am
Don’t be too optimistic. It’s possible that such discontent will be labeled as xenophobia, which the authorities will group under the same “OB markers” as race and religion issues.
Then, we don’t even get to discuss it anymore. And the always-cooperative mainstream media will quickly divert our attention to “more important” “bread and butter” issues like gambling, sex education, stupid beauty queens, lousy TV shows, fatal road accidents, fallen trees, and the like (as they always do – just flip the papers. It’s little wonder why RWB/RSF ranked Singapore so low on press freedom.)
The authorities will only “engage” us in approved topics and quickly slap those who cross the boundaries. We will warn our children never to discuss race, religion, politics and foreigners.
Soon, everybody is disengaged and apathetic, and they wonder why…
Just like the lack of babies, and they wonder why…
to Kojakbt Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 1:02 am
While I agree authorities may try to mitigate the discontentment by “disengaging” the topic, I’m somewhat enable to link this under the same genre as race or religion.
This is bigger. We are simply too pragmatic, monetary-wise, to become disengage or apathetic.
a pathetic media Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
What if you’re forced to be disengaged? Many moons ago, there were idealistic young people who wanted their views to be heard. Several incidents and a couple generations later, all the young people now are only concerned with usually-frivolous issues, many of whom don’t even know the basics of our political system much less the names of their MPs. They were probably influenced by their parents not to tread in “unsafe” waters (like mine did). It’s too late to engage them again.
to Kojakbt Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
It’s all about mindset, we do have the option to choose and nobody can force us to think otherwise. How we action, however, requires a more delicate approach.
I believe the younger folks do concern about current affairs in general and it seems the younger they are, the more outspoken they behave. Recently, I had a discussion with a friend about our MPs, we don’t know them well simply because they have not done enough to gain good publicity. So it’s really how you want to position the issue.
These points, however, are off-track from this discussion. I will be happy to share more if anyone can provide a link to a more appropriate forum.
myopinion to fcb Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
quote
“So, what is the problem in a PR having the same benefits as a citizen. How is it fair for a smarted PR to live a life worse than a dumber Singaporean ??”
Simple, PR = Permanent Resident. NOT Citizen (All brains, talent aside if really smart, can succeed in own country why come here?)
anyway PR in other countries too will have lesser rights than citizens. USA, Canada, China..etc.
Because you are a PR then u will of course have lesser benefits. Want more benefits, then simply give up own citizenship and takeup singapore citizenship.
One have to choose his/her own allegiance.
IF PR his/her allegiance is not singapore but his/her owning country.
If PR have same benefits as citizen then no need citizens liao. If war/shit happens, everyone just fly back to their own countries.
Singapore of course need PRs/foreigners.
Need them to become more singaporeans.
So there must be differences of benefit to PR and Citizens. Enough to entice talented PR/Foreigners to become citizens and not too much to chase them away.
“Do you think your citizenship should be worth a lot more?”
Of course more, We are Man, Man always want more and more.
frm -24yrguy
Smartalex Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Hi
Do u guys have problems when u applied leave from bosses who is a PR only. Are we able to report on managers who are not happy when we go on reservists and feel that our performance are not satisfactorily just because we have to go on a 3 week reservists. If we can do that, we could solved alot of issues that Singaporean are facing.
firsttimer Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Many Singaporeans are just in denial, living in delusion.
They look down on PRs yet if they are given the opportunity to emigrate to Australia, Canada, US, UK, Scandinavian countries etc. they can’t book a flight out of here fast enough.
secondtimer Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 10:58 pm
to firsttimer,
sounds like my colleagues from Australia, Canada, US, UK, Scandinavian countries etc….wait a minute, can you give me an example of a citizen who doesn’t behave the same?
huh? Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
we look down on PRs? we can’t wait to trade our citizenships with theirs. my friends even joke about “downgrading” from citizen to PR status…
OMG Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 12:44 am
“Note that if you’re single, it would be just $200 per year.”
OMG – if I remain single/childless and don’t buy HDB, I’m just worth $200 more than a PR?! Say I have 50 years of adult life, that’s only $10k, ten bloody K.
I now see my worth. Thanks & OMG.
michael tan Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
since when you have to be paid to be happy with your citizenship? sporeans should be grateful to be able to grow up and live in safe and relatively prosperous environment. most PRs come to singapore not solely on better salary potentials but also the promise of a better living environment. I understand the very valid issue of NS requirement for PRs vs citizen- but seems to me the better resolution is to improve the benefits of NS men, not increase the PR vs citizen monetary benefits which i think give false sense of entitlement. After all, female PRs vs female citizens have similar responsibilities, pay same tax but citizens enjoy different benefits already. Those who feels cheated by Spore policy, pls honestly think how you’d feel if you really grew up in neighboring countries… as for PRs who grew up in Spore — well they’re mostly 2nd generation PR, and have to serve NS, so the NS issue is a moot point..
don’t get me wrong – i agree and support citizens having priority in benefits, employment, job retention in tough times, etc. but the resolution shouldn’t be monetary in nature – it’s just fundamentally wrong that a country having to pay its citizen to be contented with their citizenship and not – to quote previous post – “trade down”.. if money is really the issue, citizenship’s >$100k advantage in being able to buy new HDBs plus all the other stuff already mentioned should address it. (If you don’t buy – that’s your own call..)
other options: make voting rights more valuable to citizen by enabling it to bring more real change, and make NS less of a burden to citizens and 2nd generation PRs
james Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
michael, i guess the money part is just to illustrate the lack of differentiation in benefits between PRs and citizens.
as citizens, we have “birth rights” (as minister vivian balakrishnan said).
if you have children of your own, would you accord the same rights and benefits to other unrelated children? bring them to your house, feed them, clothe them, play with them, give them the same pocket money and treat them like your own children? maybe you do it because you think they’re cuter, or they can help with your housework.
how would your children feel?
citizens and their forefathers build up the country. we pay taxes and males serve NS. when the crunch comes, we have nowhere else to escape to. we live here and we die here, and despite complaining a lot not many of us quit singapore (or we can’t afford to, whether it’s our skill level or our attachment to this place called home).
so why should foreigners with their easily obtained PR status enjoy similar benefits as citizens? yes, they pay taxes too, but only while they are here, whereas we pay taxes all our life.
100k amortized over many years, split between husband and wife, amounts to not much. the value is actually unrealized for most people since they gotta use the money to buy a new place to stay (unless they quit singapore). PRs can quit Singapore easily as they have a home country to go back to, and i believe most sell their flats for a tidy profit – example: the hong kong PRs during the 1997 years.
james Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
by “hong kong PRs”, i meant the PRs from hong kong.
michael tan Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
james – i think we agree with the overall objective, but i respectfully beg to differ in the approach. say spore increase the monetary benefit of citizens.. what you’ll have is lower income PRs converting for $$ sake (instead of sense of nationality), while higher income PRs will be indifferent / offended by the larger gap. then more citizens will complain because of relatively less desired PRs (in economic sense) converting to citizen getting same monetary benefits as natural born citizen. i think govt got it right — you want to attract the higher income PRs, let them pay taxes, use the tax to develop spore — even if they leave, those tax$ results remain.. at the same time, the citizens is hardened through stronger competition in workforce, and become better equipped to compete globally. (which i know means tougher life — but hey, sporean don’t have claim to ‘tough life’ compared to most other countries)
again, fundamentally, paying citizen $$ to feel good about citizenship is not right in my view… there are other levers / citizenship benefits – but which frankly some sporeans may have take for granted (taxi license is not one of them
)
michael Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
better spend whatever budget govt have to build roads, schools, and other capital assets… 1st generation PR enjoying those assets is small price to pay — spore doesn’t get to where it is being a protectionist economy — 2nd generation will have to do ns, still cant buy new hdb etc. they’ll choose either to convert, or send their son to ns and still not getting citizen benefit or leave, forgoing those capital assets… in return citizen gets better country, low income tax rate… that’s a good deal
Kojakbt Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 11:01 pm
To Michael Tan:
> say spore increase the monetary benefit of citizens.. what you’ll have is lower income PRs converting for $$ sake (instead of sense of nationality),
What makes you think we will allow any tom, dick or harry PR to convert to Singapore citizenship? If Singapore citizenship has become so desirable, you will have more choices to choose from.
> while higher income PRs will be indifferent / offended by the larger gap.
HAHA! It’s quite clear that you are completely out of touch with the ground. PRs, being humans, will think of what’s best for themselves and their families first. PRs couldn’t care less about being offended or not. PRs know this is not their country and they are guests. They are least offended by any Govt policies. They know that they are here to work in Singapore because of the strong S$. Minority of them are because they married Singaporeans.
> then more citizens will complain because of relatively less desired PRs (in economic sense) converting to citizen getting same monetary benefits as natural born citizen.
More citizens are complaining now because of PRs getting about the same benefits as Singaporeans, make a mockery out of Singapore citizenships! Singaporeans wouldn’t care if they are less PRs here in Singapore. No Singaporeans ever complained about this in the 80s when at that time there were less PRs….
> i think govt got it right — you want to attract the higher income PRs, let them pay taxes, use the tax to develop spore — even if they leave, those tax$ results remain..
I don’t think any Singaporeans would say no to the need for REAL talents. The issue here is we are getting too much and too fast over a short time. It’s like food. Your body needs food. But when you over-eat and especially eat too much over a short time, your body will suffer.
> at the same time, the citizens is hardened through stronger competition in workforce, and become better equipped to compete globally. (which i know means tougher life — but hey, sporean don’t have claim to ‘tough life’ compared to most other countries)
Most of the so called FTs/PRs here are competing with us on cost. They are the cheap FTs/PRs….
> again, fundamentally, paying citizen $$ to feel good about citizenship is not right in my view… there are other levers / citizenship benefits – but which frankly some sporeans may have take for granted (taxi license is not one of them )
Whatever it is, there is a definite need to give more benefits to Singaporeans…. if PAP wants to stay in power. The sentiment on the ground is very bad, I can tell you. However, PM Lee, in his latest speech, seemed to be saying the fault lay with us…we are raising our expectations too high! So should we be expecting to live our lives like those in the 3rd world countries? HAHAHA!
james Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 12:18 am
michael said “i think govt got it right — you want to attract the higher income PRs, let them pay taxes, use the tax to develop spore — even if they leave, those tax$ results remain”
they aren’t paying higher tax rate than citizens, yet they enjoy almost equal benefits. don’t forget we have been and will continue to be paying taxes for much longer than these fair-weather residents. it’s just not fair no matter how you look at it.
turn it around. i bet PRs themselves wouldn’t like it if their country is flooded with new residents who enjoy almost equal benefits as citizens. come to think of it, which other country is as over-zealous as Singapore in attracting “talent”? USA? don’t think so.
has anyone compared benefits of PR in other countries?
michael also said “more citizens will complain because of relatively less desired PRs”
i agree with Kojakbt when he/she said you’re out of touch. we ARE ALREADY attracting subpar PRs who are attracted by those heartlander subsidies (you think the rich will care about MOE schools fees when they don’t even send their kids to public schools?)
more than one-third of the people here are non-citizens. how many are “desired” PRs? i bet the zhang yuan yuan types aren’t even close to being desirable.
james Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 12:28 am
>forgoing those capital assets
forgoing? they aren’t forgoing much. afaik, many PR quitters sell their HDB flats for a tidy profit before packing up and going back to retire in comfort.
why should they convert to be citizens when all they care is to exploit the generosity of our FT policy?
Li Kuah You Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 2:10 am
thank you for entertaining me people.
it is my kayu policy that made singapore what it is today. i will depart in years not far away and will let my son clear up the mess – if only he is capable of it.
rattle all you want, and we know the fact that no PRs want a lousy singapore citizenship still.
michael tan Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 10:21 am
kojabt wrote: “Most of the so called FTs/PRs here are competing with us on cost. They are the cheap FTs/PRs…” –> it’s just semantics.. i can also validly say people in other less developed countries at the same cost of a person in spore have more capabilities. Look – it’s the same issue US is facing with all the outsourcing/off-shoring issues. Raising trade barriers to me not the answer, for US has been benefited from being a free economy in the first place. US just have to move to new areas beyond manufacturing.. look at apple thriving without manufacturing anything(btw, spore benefits from that since apple invest here)
james: capital assets go beyond the HDBs.. roads, public transports, etc etc… those assets supports productivity (ask anybody in india, indonesia how many outside meetings they can go in a day — prob 2) and help keeps spore income tax low.
as for the so-called ‘subpar PRs’ — who do you prefer to take lower income jobs? sporeans or PRs or PRs who turned sporeans cos higher citizenship $$? I’d choose PRs anyday. they can leave if they want, we’ll get newer/ cheaper labor to replace them. remember the chinese athlete who turn citizen, get the prize money and retire in china? to improve citizenship, id rather have govt investing in assets that cant be moved overseas..
anyway, i think i’ve tried to make my points as clear as i can. disagreements are fine, that’s the whole point of open forum like this anyway
james Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 10:38 am
i see your points. let’s drill into the problem of too many subpar PRs. i surmise that they add too little value for the benefits they reap from sg. yes they do the jobs we shun, but can’t we give out more work permits? why should we award PR to subpar workers? they directly compete with born and bred singaporeans in health and education subsidies and their children get the same priority in primary 1 places.
to summarize, my point is that i don’t mind truly talented PRs who make a net positive contribution, but the very apparent problem now is that there are too many subpar PRs now who aren’t worth their permanent residencies.
michael tan Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 11:13 am
hehe, wasnt planning to do another post – but suddenly remember two side notes that some may not know:
1) do you know that PRs are not ‘permanent’? you need to have a job to renew every 5 years (in some cases 10)… gov’t actually have gotten a process for taking out free loaders.
2) US have a law (dunno whether federal or states law) that require company to look for comparable citizens before giving a job to foreigners. in the end, most companies just advertise the job role in some obscure newspaper, wait 7 days, then hire the foreigner they want anyway. point is you cant really prohibit companies from doing what’s best for them commercially.. if you do, they make the business decision whether to operate in spore or outside — hence the gov’t philosophy of “let the talent come and compete (and pay tax) than they reside overseas and compete”
one way to address the PR issue: tax companies 50% of that PR/WP monthly salary upon hiring. it guarantees citizen preferential access to jobs, still attract talents (since the PRs don’t pay the tax), small enough that hopefully it doesn’t discourage foreign investors, generate revenue for spore to build better schools, roads for citizens (yes, plus non-permanent PRs) to enjoy.
michael tan Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 11:23 am
another fun observation: the increase in PR to citizen ratio can be attributed to one thing: you citizens are lazy in bed!
james Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 11:45 am
it’s not that we are lazy, but life’s too tough here to want to bring more suffering. imagine this: both you and your wife are working long hours (gotta fight with PRs), and your parents are busy too, so why would you want to have kids? and a kid’s life here isn’t a bed of roses too.
so it’s a bad cycle. competitive society + generous FT policy => less kids. and less kids => more FTs!
some people say it’ll be better if we’re a less competitive society as a whole. maybe we should give it a try.
michael tan Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
gosh – this discussion is addictive…
ya lar – there was a survey once on which asian country has happiest ppl — philipinnes + indon come on top, japanese bot.. ironic, the richer we are, the less happy we become. arguably – life is not ‘tough’ here (i know what you mean by tough – just putting it in a different context),
we – human – tends to take what we have for granted.
i say let the PRs work hard, earn money, then leave.. let’s enjoy 30 min commute (seriously, 30 min is GOOD), 4% effective income tax rate on 52k (spore median income — you’ll get hit up to 30% in some other countries earning that much and getting nothing in return whereas sporean getting good schools, hospitals, etc etc..
why in the world you need 2 incomes in spore.. school is almost free, medical+transport are affordable, retirement is supported by CPF, travel is cheap… condo + continental car are self inflicted wounds. i support your notion of getting less competitive! let’s make babies !
secondtimer Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
I value some of the points Michael wrote on the approach in his first post.
But sigh…clearly he is “out of touch” in his last few posts and he’s just arguing for the seek of arguing. Could have turned into a more constructive discussion.
Let the flood gates open.
secondtimer Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
I agree with you. We need talents and the question is how can we get real talents as PR and eventually convert them to citizens.
For every top talent (who really brings sales to Singapore) that we attract, we probably attract loads of cheap, mediocre and lazy PRs like Zhang Yuan Yuan or PHD students who doesn’t generate breakthrough innovations for Singapore.
It doesn’t make sense to bring subpar PRs in to consume our infrastructure, flats, make prices go up and create complexities and reduce productivity.
Instead, why not spend more resources on building the capabilities of Citizens and attracting real talents.
secondtimer Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
I mean I agree with James in my previous post
james Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
UK Home Secretary, has admitted for the first time that the Government has been inept over its handling of immigration which has increased pressure on local jobs and services.
He told an audience at the Royal Society for the Arts in central London: “Whilst I accept that governments of both persuasions, including this one, have been maladroit in their handling of this issue, I do believe that the UK is now far more successful at tackling migration than most of its European and North American neighbours.
He admitted: “There are communities which have been disproportionately affected by immigration, where people have legitimate concerns about the strain that the growth in the local population has placed on jobs and services.”
The comments echo long-standing concerns from some local authorities who say their limited resources, such as housing, education and health, have been severely hit by sudden influxes of large numbers of migrants in to their communities.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/...
UNQUOTE
such admission will NEVER happen in singapore.
fcb Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
People are often mentioned Real Talent. Singapore is simply not attractive enough for the really talented. From a technology point of view, certainly not.
In Asia, only 3 countries are technologically advanced [Japan, Korea and Taiwan]. In all these countries, their citizens work the hardest, go to Grad schools. Its not about great innovations but collective efforts which has made them advanced. In contrast, Singaporeans are looking for easy life or want to work only for money . No goal or vision. Maybe too much influenced by the west where a lot of creative/tech stuff is done by immigrants.
This can be seen in all spheres. Tho singapore is a developed country, you do not have decent television or sports. Rightnow, the only incentive in being in Singapore for foreigners is Money or closeness to Indian/Chinese lifestyle.
I simply do not think that PRs or foreginers in Singapore are there for anything other than good life n money. The ones with ambitions , talent and vision can go to better places. The truth is Singapore cannot attract Real talent. And the local population is not talented enough to compete globally.
On a secondary note, you should realize how materialistic Singaporeans are in general. People with far less money have kids in India n China. Even PRs with far less money have kids. Greed for cars, condos, vacations, etc is taking a toll on people in singapore. They are exposed to the good things but cannot have it. This builds the frustration. Instead of appreciating and realizing that they are quite lucky, and how nice Singapore is, the greed n discontent is making them happy.
I love Singapore but do not like the people in Singapore much. Too materialistic and mediocre for my taste.
cbf Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
well… what u said is true. the society on the whole is already materialistic enough to start with. but having political leaders and religious leaders who keep stressing on wanting top dollars is going to make it worse. the state papers at one point was also talking about the high life day in and day out.
what are we to do? we are shaped by our genes, our culture, our leaders and the media.
our leaders keep saying you have to work hard, work hard, work hard, else everything will come crumbling down. so how to have kids and have time for them when you don’t even have time for yourself?
don’t forget that it’s also the government that formulated policies to encourage women to work full time (eg working mother child relief).
no doubt our greed is partly to blame, but there’s a concerted effort to entice the people work hard. kids are not a priority.
to have more kids, the government should have housewife child relief instead. with more women staying at home, there’ll be more babies!
secondtimer Says:
November 7th, 2009 at 12:36 am
Not true. Singapore still attracts top talents and they are not here only for money. Some are already very rich to begin with, i.e. Jet li, Gong Li. There are also many talented business managers and bankers who are extremely delighted to be converted to Singaporean. The question is how can Singapore focus more on these talents and deter the mediocre ones from coming?
You don’t get it. Singapore doesn’t want to compete aggressively in the technology field. It’s more of maintaining the infrastructure/business and it’s an irony because we are actually get a lot of tech and engineering resources from developing countries. If you are in that field; that probably explains why you are mixing with the wrong people (who watches too much local TV) in the first place. Singapore needs to set clear priorities and if this it not where we can to play in, then stop getting foreign resources in that field and focus on other sectors. Of course, if we are lucky and some real talents come up with the next “ipod”, we will adore him!
Most Singaporeans are easily contented people – I’m not frustrated when I not able to buy a car or condo. I’m frustrated with I have to share the already constrained internet connection, HDB flats and public transport with PR and foreigners who ungratefully slam Singaporeans in public forums.
It’s fair really. If you are a real talent, we will definitely welcome you. If you don’t like us that much, you should perhaps ask yourself why and reflect what are the significant contributions have you brought to Singapore. Would any other developed countries want your “talent” in criticizing their own citizens?
matt Says:
November 7th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
well
money I think the most reason tlent come to singapore. Seems you just focus with those top talent.
Imagine without foreign worker
Does Singapore still maintain living cost in this level? Who will clean rubbish? who will work in constructions line?
Do you have time to take care baby without maid?
Something more complex than just about high tech/IT.
Even at this time do you realize so many retrenchment @ Seagate, sony, Hitachi and all those high skill manufacturer?
Singapore somehow really depend on his neighbour.
Water from malaysia, all fruits & vegetables are imports. Even when Indonesia banned export sand, really affecting construction Industry (and singapore reclamation projects)
If those neighbour country developed very well,
let say Batam become par with singapore, what do you think?
damon Says:
November 7th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
don’t get us wrong.
we welcome foreign workers to our shores, but only to work for money, and NOT to enjoy the SAME benefits as citizens.
in fact, i sincerely thank all the hardworking foreign workers – cleaners, construction workers, maids, etc – for keeping our country humming along. i’m sure we pay them well enough, otherwise they won’t be here.
what we are unhappy about is that there are many many low-grade, subpar, inferior PERMANENT RESIDENTS who are here to compete with citizens for benefits like medical and education subsidies. they enjoy almost the same as what we citizens enjoy.
they get a lot, but they don’t contribute much.
we don’t mind if they are highly skilled and specialized workers who add value to our economy, but i’m thoroughly disappointed when more and more inferior people like the zhang yuan yuan types come here to exploit our lax FT policy with the selfish intention of going back home in a few years. because they’re inferior, they don’t add value, yet they enjoy ALL the benefits that come with their permanent residency.
they get a lot, but they don’t contribute much. it’s like paying a high salary to an unskilled worker. we’re overpaying them.
these PR benefits aren’t peanuts, but we’re getting monkeys.
foreign workers are OK.
but inferior and selfish permanent residents are NOT OK.
fcb Says:
November 7th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
Basically, you want foreigners to come to Singapore and live a life which is of 20% lower standard than that of a similar Singaporeans. You perhaps want them to pay more for all the infrastructure like school, education, medical, etc. And you think that real Geniuses will come to Singapore to be second class residents.
The fact is two people doing the same job must have the same quality of life. If you discriminate, the talented ones will leave. Foreigners should probably spend 20% more and then retire to their home countries. So that Singapore benefits from their work and yet renders them incapable of living in Singapore.
In every country, lot of mediocre people can enter through universities by paying their way through.But after that, they have to find a job on their own merit. But to become a PR, one has to be fulfill ICA specified requirements.
All the arguments here point to simple Selfishness. I guess the Singaporeans who detest the PRs most are at the bottom of the pile in Singapore so they blame foreigners for all their problems. For every inferior PR, there must be 20 far more inferior citizens. Learn to compete Globally. Cannot expect the Govt to spoon feed its citizens all their life.
To fcb Says:
November 7th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
If Singapore is not good enough for you, why come to Singapore (study?) in the 1st place? I bet your study here is also free for u right? If want to join Singapore, why dont you convert to Singapore citizenship and enjoy the same benefit?
Are you one of those foreigner that is qualified to covert to Singaporean but choose to “dig gold” from Singapore and go back to your root country to enjoy the fruit that you ripped off with at the later stage? Or taking Singapore as a passport/stepping stone to your easier access to other countries in future?
Give you one inch and u want one feet. Better stay put in your root country and dont become an betrayer due to your unloyalty to your country man, to enjoy your own citizenship benefit (if that is what you are so greedy of.
PR is not supposed to enjoy same benefit as their ancestor and them do not make any contribution to Singapore in the past. The only benefit should be the money they earned. If they don’t think the money is good enough, or Singapore is not a safe country, nobody force them to come to Singapore to be in the “inferior” (if that is what you think so) category.
matt Says:
November 8th, 2009 at 12:20 am
so in short..
we are singaporean do not need PR/FT
we just just need foreign worker?
Maybe singapore population will be less and lesser in the future.
We can see from our aging population
from statistic singapore’s birth rate 1.3.
Not counted those prefer Scandinavia
We are living in borderless world
fcb Says:
November 8th, 2009 at 12:29 am
My study was free but then most countries in the world offer scholarships at graduate level, and, without any bond. The same rules exist in all countries. I am grateful to Singapore for the opportunity.
And, I live Singapore a lot. Great place, efficient, clean, safe, best food in the world, great entertainment. Though its a bit crowded and getting expensive day by day. I want to work at a place building real technology for sometime so that I can get an important and lead role in my job in future in Singapore.
Ofcoz, I want to work abroad bcus its useful for my career. But if u ask me to grow old in Singapore, I will take it. And as a citizen, not a PR. I will not want to live like a PR and leave Singapore after 10 years. I will live like a Citizen. If not, I wont go back to Singapore. No timepass in Singapore for me.
I will try to look for a job at a slighlty senior position in a year or two, then move to Singapore. Btw, my wife is a Singapore PR and we take Singapore very seriously and consider our home for all practical purposes.
Now, I am a foreigner who really like Singapore. But, when I hear from Singaporeans complaining about foreigners, it makes me so angry. I may not know a lot about your history, but I live by the rules. This situation will exist in all countries but still, it will be nice to be welcomed, particularly, when we appreciate Singapore as a place. I am more worried about people and less about the place.
singaporean Says:
November 8th, 2009 at 12:36 am
As a Singaporean, I think that we need foreign talents so that jobs will not be lost when mnc relocate to a cheaper location.
Also foreign talents help to ensure mnc can continue to function when sg males go for ns and sg females go on maternity leave.
If Singapore fails to attract foreign talents and mnc relocate elsewhere, we are finished as a nation.
Of course, those who can leave will certainly leave but our govt needs to take care of those who can not leave.
Let us welcome foreign talents and not discriminate against them and together we can make Singapore a better place for all of us to live in.
damon Says:
November 8th, 2009 at 1:22 am
i welcome true talents to be our PRs and wish they can convert to be citizens, but i absolutely detest free riders to also demand an unfair share of the great PR giveaways.
to fcb, if you’re a talented PR who makes positive contribution, and not a zhang yuan yuan free rider type, nobody will begrudge you being a PR. don’t be overly sensitive and react to our criticism of inferior PRs, if you aren’t inferior to begin with. or are you admitting you’re inferior?
fcb Says:
November 8th, 2009 at 1:32 am
ya, my wife and i were both phd students at nus. she got hers already, and i will get mine in a few months. so, hopefully, we will qualify to be citizens or PRs. we just want to be able to live a good life and get meaningful creative jobs. i consider myself intelligent but need a bit more experience before i can act as a leader in my work.
i have lived in europe also and i know that Singapore’s immigration policy is kinder. i had a student pass for 5 years while in europe, u renew every year. so, i never felt like a foreigner here. could easily go out and come in as if its my own country. i truly feel i can be a lot happier in Singapore than europe or USA, although, i want to work abroad to be good at my work.
that said, i can understand some of the pain that Singaporeans feel regarding foreigners. maybe, i would feel the same if some outsider came and screwed my home. but overall, singapore is still the most foreigner friendly place i have been to. and i have lived there for 5 years and my wife for 6. so, i know what i am talking about.
damon Says:
November 8th, 2009 at 1:39 am
to #59 singaporean, don’t tell me you also welcome low-grade, inferior and subpar foreigners to be our PRs, who will pay same tax rate as citizens but without responsibilities like NS, who will enjoy almost similar medical subsidies as citizens but have a home country to escape to when things turn bad here (eg war, disaster, recession), and whose children will get same priority as citizens in primary school places and almost equal fee subsidies but can always escape NS by renouncing PR status at the right time.
don’t misunderstand me, for high-grade talented PRs, i think we should even give them more benefits to encourage them to convert to citizens (and of course take up citizenship responsibilities).
it’s the low-grade, inferior, subpar PRs that get on my nerve.
please read carefully, the keywords are “low-grade”, “inferior” and “subpar”. if you’re none of the above, you have no reason to be offended.
damon Says:
November 8th, 2009 at 1:50 am
“maybe, i would feel the same if some outsider came and screwed my home.” – fcb
exactly what i’m feeling now after reading Mr Sam Ahmed screwing singaporeans in our own state paper:
http://www.straitstimes.com/ST+Foru...
Kevin Says:
November 8th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
To thrive as a city-state, we need to build the platform to deliver higher-value work. Higher-value work naturally requires more specialization, and requires people with such special skills. Without these people, no high-value work can be done. For those work that is now of lower value, they will eventually disappear in the city-state, mostly moving to other countries and very often to countries where migrants had come before to the city-state to practiced on.
Some work by their nature of servicing the local population cannot be moved, barber, clearing garbage, etc., and in a thriving city-state economy, there will be more demand for this type of services. Some of these are dirty work that people do not like to do and will therefore be taken up by low-skilled migrants, who still can see benefits from a seemingly low pay, because 1) the strong dollar he is being paid in and 2) the quality of living below the poverty line in the city-state is still much better than what he have in his hometown. Without these low-cost people, the cost of maintaining the living standard will increase substantially. Another thing to consider is that on the service side, there are also high-value services (like $300 hair cut, $1000 meal, etc.) that will demand highly-skilled workers to provide the service.
So as a person living in this city-state starting out, you have multiple opportunities to move into various high-value opportunities, but in competition with people migrating into the city state. The alternative scenario is that of a laggard city-state with no resources and would need to use the weak dollar to import life basic necessities. In this kind of context, a common sense approach to govern is to have stronger inclination towards having a lax migrant policy, including both skilled and unskilled workers, to encourage higher value work and reduced service cost of low-value work. And after that deal with issues, such as resident harmony and people who are affected when their livelihood gets affected by the changes.
The natural response as an individual is then to be able to move to doing higher value work, within the current profession or a separate profession. The pursuit of higher value will not stop and hence should be continuously pursued as well by the individual.
Dear Minister Says:
November 8th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
fcb at #3 said: “Zhang Yuan Yuan is not a super asset to Singapore. but, then blame your Singaporean ICA.”
ICA is under Ministry of Home Affairs. But as far as I can recall, Wong Kan Seng has never spoken a word on this FT issue and related policies. A humble citizen here wants to hear from you, sir.
And as usual, the Straits Times / Sunday Times is busy with measuring the number of steps from a cinema exit back into the mall. On politics, they’ll only report verbatim what the leaders said. As for political commentary, they will always agree and agree and say “move on” and “don’t begrudge”. Otherwise, they talk about everything under the sun except issues that may cause unhappiness.
If what’s said in the following link is true, even the reporters working in our national papers are not proud of their own work! How sad.
http://www.temasekreview.com/2009/1...
fcb Says:
November 8th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
I think I understand what the real issue behind the immigrant influx is. When I heard in 2004 that Singapore wants to increase its population from 4.5 million to 6 million, I thgt – are they crazy.
Already the country is quite crowded. But, I can probably understand the logic behind this. Assume that Singapore is suitable for just 4 million people. Anything more is putting pressure on the infrastructure.
The problem is that the age distribution of this 4 million is not correct. It is not enough to sustain the future populations needs of the country. There are too many people who are on the older or non child-producing side.
Thus, they are forcing additional people in the country to create the right balance of age-groups necessary for sustaining singapore’s population down the line, say 20-30 years.
This implies that the current generations will have to bear the burden of extra population, just in order to tackle the current imbalance in the population.
I bet if there were lot of young people in the current 4.5 million, Singapore wont need so many foreigners. But since the distribution is skewed, Singapore needs to add more younger people, even if that means burdening the infrastructure and paining the current generation of citizens.
This is just what I tght mite be the reason. Unfortunately, the current residents have to pay for this imbalance.
The problem is that for a Singaporean, additional pressure means discomfort.But your age-distribution in the population has become very distorted. You have too many people in the wrong age bracket. And hence, the current generation will have to increase the population so that 20 years from now, it will converge to a more optimal 5 million with proper age distribution.
Another to fcb Says:
November 8th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
u said that Singaporeans are materialistic #50, selfish #55, and also hopefully u can become a citizen/PR in #61.
Perhaps i can give u some of my views as a Singaporean and for u to appreciate why some people are feeling indignant and u dun quite get it.
Firstly, my opinion is that true foreign talents who can contribute should be welcomed to Singapore to contribute to Singapore’s economic growth and create jobs etc in line with our leaders’ objective.
But it turned out to be quite paradoxical becos instead of getting more jobs, citizens find themselves striving harder or even struggling to compete for jobs, university positions, housing, even mrt/bus seats etc etc in all aspects of our lives.
Let me give u a more specific eg. I graduated from where u did your Phd. When i was a student, I noticed that in certain faculties, foreigners make up about 5-6 students out of every 10 students. They get 5-digit figures tuition fee grants and scholarships per pax from our government (tax-payers’). And for every foreigner that gets a place in our university, 1 local citizen is devoid of the chance to get that study grant to study locally and often, has no choice but to contemplate studies overseas which is much much more costly (too bad if he/she can’t afford it). I feel grateful for being offered a place in local uni but sad for my peers who do not have this opportunity and the grant. U can argue that they are not gd enough but be grateful that u get to do your PhD for free at the expense of some other Singaporeans.
On the issue of “inferior, low-grade” workers, i think they are needed in our country..but it also depends on the kind of work that they are doing. If there are not enough citizens who are willing to become cleaners, contruction workers etc, then i think it is inevitable we need their help. But what about other other blue-collared jobs such as factory workers, food stall assistants etc? Are there no willing Singaporeans to do the jobs? Singaporeans who are more elderly, or less educated also have to compete with “low-grade, inferior” foreigners with these jobs.
Granted, companies want more energetic, younger and less-costly workers for commmercial reasons. But is there any law to protect the rights and priority of citizens who are willing and able to do the job?
These issues are perhaps not so relevant to the local rich, but prevalent amongst the middle class and low-income families in Sg. Foreigners are needed in Sg but the issue is where to draw the line between contributing to Singapore’s GDP growth versus compromising/sacrificing citizens’ rights, lifestyles and opportunities.
I think the government needs to think deeper, understand what’s happening on the ground, and convey their message better rather than just repeating because there are not enough babies, we need to top up numbers using foreigners to maintain GDP growth…Is there any other way to “improve” a nation besides increasing its GDP growth? Should GDP growth come at the expense of everything else? (Yes I know GDP is tagged to some people’s salaries..) What about comfort of living and sense of identity as a Singaporean? If PRs and citizens’ privileges are more or less the same and when I walk along Orchard Rd, out of 10 people, 5 people are not citizens, then what does it mean to be Singaporean? Just illustrating an example food for thought.
Hope fcb can contemplate some of these many issues before labelling us selfish and materialistc. (yes u’re right regarding your point in your last post, I just read it.)
john Says:
November 8th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
Kevin, I don’t think we should be giving out permanent residence to low-skilled migrants. As another person suggested earlier, giving work permits, fair compensation and reasonable living conditions to them is already good enough. You wouldn’t want to adopt your maid, gardener and chauffeur as your children right?
Our FT policy is about “talents”, not low-skilled workers. The main complaint in this long thread of discussion is that there are already too many low-skilled PRs in Singapore.
middleclass Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 12:34 am
Indeed the key issue is having too many low skilled foreigners.
That has caused increasing hardship on Singaporeans.
Singapore must always strive to be a business friendly port but there must be a balance.
The answer cannot be indiscriminate import of foreigners with the sole purpose of depressing wages to attract business here.
Long term that will be a lousy strategy.
We need to give Singaporeans a fighting chance.
When mangroves and coral reefs are destroyed your small fishes will never have a chance to grow into big fishes.
Bad analogy maybe but personally I look at the situation around me nowadays and wondered if I would be where I am with the competitions around now for my much younger fellow Singaporeans.
What doesn’t destroy you doesn’t always make you stronger.
There are reports in US that when people have a slow start in their careers they usually don’t all catch up.
Also when they get retrench during their primes they usually also don’t get back to where they are before.
These are all the same issues Singaporeans are facing and will probably get worst if we continue going down the path of global wage arbitrage.
Kevin Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 7:11 am
Low-skilled foreigners reduce living expenses. I am not sure how many of the construction workers, maids, etc. are PRs, if any to begin with. For the skilled ones, it may be useful to differentiate between specialized skills where locally we have little supply and those with plentiful supply. It is also useful to draw a distinction between location dependent work (providing a service to a local directly) and location independent work (providing a service, making goods indirectly to other countries). So in this matrix, the population is generally frustrated at location independent work where there seems to be ample local supply. However, as the name implies, the work is location independent and hence it is the market forces that drive the costs down, and not foreigner depressing the wages. If we keep the foreigners out, the work will move elsewhere anyway. For those location dependent, skilled work, the foreigners are here mainly because of insufficient local willingness to take up the work at “depressed” wage. If we take these foreigners away, the cost of living goes up. In a way if we stretch the argument (which I admit is not foolproof), those who are now receiving normal wages end up as good as if they are willing to receive the depressed wage, because the cost has now gone up.
middleclass Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 9:23 am
Kevin: Yes it’s true that Singapore competes globally and keeping a competitive workforce is vital to our viability as a preferred business location.
However there must be a balance to make sure our local workforce can compete on a level field.
We cannot do that in our environment when foreigners come here with just a fraction of our cost.
The long term effect will be devastating when our young skilled workforce are crowded out and deprived of the chance of developing upwards.
I have seen that in many companies I worked for and worked with.
I also don’t quite accept that low skilled work reduce living expenses.
As long as we pay living wages I don’t see why we cannot find local workforce.
Business large or small without any distinction will always drive down costs as long as they can get away with it.
Are the Walmarts, Costcos, even NTUCs and Sheng Songs doing their communities any good?
They provide things slightly cheaper but at what prices to their communities?
Our workforce needs to be nurtured.
The govt talked about the Singapore brand but it’s not helping with the current policies.
Plus I refuse to believe that sacrificing our workforce is the only way to keep our costs of doing business down or that it’s the only factor keeping businesses here.
The businesses that look for cheapest workforce will always be able to find somewhere else.
For example the electronics and manufacturing sector.
to kevin Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 10:19 am
I don’t think maids and construction workers are PRs, but in the coffeeshop near where I live, there are PRs who run some of the stalls. How in the first place did they manage to get PR status, I don’t know. But if there are more of such PRs, the livelihood of some Singaporeans will be further affected. Not to mention that it’s extremely unfair to give these low-skilled people PR status.
Kevin Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Middleclass:
Let me give a hypothetical example of what I meant by increase in living costs. For example, if we eliminate foreign nurses, foreign helpers in hawker centres and foreign childcare giver (either in childcare or in the form of the maid), then we can imagine the hospital bills, hawker food prices and childcare services moving up. I am referring to individuals cost rather than company cost in this case. These are essentials to Singaporeans (no, you cannot take away hawker food from Singaporeans, can you?) and therefore wages will go up until a point it becomes viable for local people to work in those roles.
I think those starting out are not that big a problem because they can afford to switch and they do not have the burden of supporting a family. The biggest problems are people like us who are somewhat entrenched in the present roles and when the economic model suddenly changes, i.e., you can get regional IT managers at half the rate, we are in a challenging position.
We cannot blame the fact that the government has allowed someone from Timbuktu to cut our prices. It is simply that our work is becoming simple enough for other people with lesser cost to do.
So what do we do? We need to move into high-value sectors like finance and life science (if we are not there). We need to be willing to take up new skills to support new business needs (e.g., process re-engineering). We need to be enterprising to think about starting our own businesses. This is the reality.
Could anyone give a good example of a job that is best “saved” for a local?
Kevin Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 10:57 am
I don’t know if kopi-tiam helpers are PR or not, but surely they are in demand, because I cannot do without my kopi-o and these people help to keep the prices of kopi-o down. This benefits a lot of kopi-o drinkers at the expense of eliminating locals aspiring to be kopi-tiam helpers.
Like some of the people who reads the forum, I like to sit one corner and shake leg too if I can, but I have not figured out how to do it without risking too much. These notions of foreign migrant restrictions seem to be riskier to me (and my kids) than the current migrant policies.
middleclass Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Kevin: Yes I do not ignore the reality of our economic challenges.
As I’ve always stated Singapore is a huge beneficiary of the global trade and we cannot turn away foreign talents that bring competitive edge to our economy.
What I’m however saying is that there’s no reason to relentlessly import any foreigners to keep wages low.
At the blue collar level we have high costs of land and rents but yet only concern ourselves with only cheap non skill labour costs?
At the white collar level do we need to import so many foreigners when Singaporeans can do the job.
Remembering not everyone starts at the high level and entry level jobs are always needed.
Also not everybody will eventually be able to work management or special skills jobs.
Unfortunately i don’t pretend to know the answers.
However I do see the damages done by the current policies and we need something better.
I don’t want my kids to grow up paying $200k education, $500k HDB housing and compete with a horde of foreigners for $1.8k entry level job.
The numbers just don’t add up.
to kevin Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 11:47 am
We definitely need some cheap foreign workers like those in construction and even in kopitiam. These are work permit holders. I have no issue with them. I fully agree with having cheap labour to do the work that Singaporeans avoid.
My point is about PRs. Permanent Residents. Those who enjoy many subsidies with few responsibilities.
My personal observation is that there are more and more of such low-skilled PRs. Zhang Yuan Yuan is one of them. And so are some kopitiam stall owners I come across (they are not helpers).
In my opinion, we don’t need to give them PR. I would rather they stay as work permit holders.
As some people said, being a PR in Singapore is even better than being a citizen. So we must not frivolously give away PR to low-skilled inferior foreigners. We must be very selective and only give PR to high-skilled foreigners.
Again, please distinguish between high-skilled PRs, low-skilled PRs and work permit holders.
to kevin Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Let me try enlightening you from another angle. The main discussion is on skilled PRs. And on the contrary, PRs INCREASES the cost of living. Their sudden influx pushes the prices of flats and private apartments due to storage of supply. Most of us find flats less affordable now. They buy cars and push the prices of cars up. These are big ticket items, not your cheap kopi and hawker food. They also jam up public transports, so it takes longer travelling time, also another cost. It’s good if they bring in significant contributions to Singapore but most do not and authorities do not have good regulation to filter. Many years ago, PRs are confirmed very high caliber. Now flood gate opens, and probably, only 1 in 20 skilled PR now is better than average Singaporean, i.e. I don’t think kopitiam helper is very high caliber. So why are they PR? Why bring them in to take up space and jack up prices?
We are fine with your examples on low cost workers on work permit who do keep low cost to a certain extend. But can you share your views on skilled PR and their contributions and impact on costs?
to to kevin Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
what you’re trying to say is that the so called “skilled PRs” are actually “low-skilled PRs” and they are detrimental to our well being.
Kevin, any views?
to to to kevin Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
nope, i mean if “low-skilled PRs” don’t bring in significant contributions to Singapore, why should we offer them PR? Work permit will do.
fcb Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
From the discussions here, I see that for Singaporeans here, immigrants
are nothing more than commodities. If they are useful, bring them in
else keep them out. How can foreigners be useful to us. If they are useful,
they are ok, else kick them out.
Its okay to have cheap laborers who will do inferior work since Singaporeans
are too good for that, and not bcus they are brighter or anything, but just bcus
they were born in a slightly richer country. That makes them better. The fact
is you have no problem taking advantage of under-privelaged foreginers or
foreigners who can increase your GDP. The problem is with the foreigners
who are in between because they are eating your pie and crowding your MRTs
and roads. So, its either the cheapest possible labourers or high class PRs.
The ones in the middle are the ones who hurt you the most. Either way,
Singaporeans should not be pained. Their life should be world class, and there
should be poor people slaving for them and talented people growing the economy
for them.
What you do not realize is that by treating people as objects, you are insulting
their dignity. However, people from poorer countries need Money more than Dignity.
I feel no sympathy for people who treat poorer people from poorer countries with
contempt and have no shame in making them work like cleaners and maids for
a pittance of a salary. But when it interfares with the comfort and lifestyle,
whine like anything.
Most of you have Zero respect for foreigners. You just want to use them for your own
benefit and comfort. So, I do not see why a foreigner should not use Singapore
for his/her benefit. You would do the same if you had a chance. Just that those
who do not have the chance and are stuck, complain.
to fcb Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
fcb said “have no shame in making them work like cleaners and maids for a pittance of a salary”
do you honestly think they’ll come here if the money is not good? there are countless examples of foreign workers (on work permit) who are so happy to work here. the money they earn can get them a very good living when they go back. my maid is one of them and my family treat her well and with respect. she’s happy too. it’s win-win.
nobody looks down on these foreign workers. we are all grateful for their help here.
however, the discussion here is about inferior permanent residents who are not worth the permanent residence given to them. i hope you’re not one of them.
to fcb Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
MM Lee said “If (the PRs) don’t help us raise the level, they won’t be citizens. We are not stupid.”
i respectfully wish to point out that it’s THEM who are not stupid. why on earth would a PR convert to be a citizen? he already gets to enjoy the benefits of citizenship with few responsibilities.
no wonder there’s unbridled outburst at the Straits Times discussion board:
http://comment.straitstimes.com/sho...
fcb Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
I often see elderly women collecting cans and selling paper napkins in food courts. Why dont you hire one of your Singapore elderly to take care of your kids. I dont see why Singaporeans cant be maids if they can collect cans.
Maybe, you think working as a maid in SG is a win-win situation. What I see if that a person is so helpless in her own country, that she is willing to work in Singapore for a saving of 2-300 dollars, with perhaps not much prospects in life.
Maybe you think thats more than what a Maid deserves in life. If she were born in Finland, she would have gotten Free University Education.
So, what you dont understand is that her destiny has left her with not much hope. But there are many who can change their destinies.
to fcb Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
sorry i don’t get you. do you mean that everyone ought to ask “why am i not born the emperor of this world?”
please enlighten us on how you would “change their destinies.”
(it’s strange this discussion on low-skilled PRs has veered into a question of “destinies”.)
Haha Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
“why on earth would a PR convert to be a citizen? he already gets to enjoy the benefits of citizenship with few responsibilities.”
Haha. Well said. Well said. The leaders just don’t get it. What are we to do?
fcb Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
Noone needs to ask why he/she is not the emperor. But, its ok to ask why one cannot have a respectable life. You have tagged what respectable life for a foreign maid is. You should have hired a Singaporean maid. Why didnt you ? To save money ?? Dont you care for your own citizens.
This is the same sentiment that all employers have. They replace expensive workers with cheaper workers. Its only when one gets retrenched , does one talk about Cheap labor. As long as you are the employer, you want to hire the cheapest possible employee.
Its natural. People only complain when they are at the receiving end. What you lack is what Obama calls EMPATHY.
Among all these issues, all you choose to discuss is that of low quality PR bcus thats the only place where u are getting a RAW DEAL. All other evils of your system n human nature is ok, since it benefits Singaporeans.
to fcb Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
How about yourself? Why aren’t you saving the hungry children in Africa? One dies every few seconds. Where’s your empathy?
Why don’t you adopt a few of them? Why not ask your parents to adopt a few too, so you can have more brothers and sisters to discuss the issue of empathy?
Don’t be foolish. Of course people take care of their own kind.
fcb Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
Peace. Then, there is no point convincing me of this low-quality PR cause. Bcus, I am not affected by them yet. And, I am happy that they can make some money so that, one day their children can have a chance to be proud citizens or high-quality talent somewhere else. That how people grow. You had your chance. Now, they are getting theirs. To me, Singapore Govt is like Robin Hood.
All you had to do was produce more children. For that too, you need foreigners. Have more kids and get rid of these low-quality PR. Its as simple as that.
I wanted to understand what this issue is all about. But it boils down to material benefits that some are loosing due to some unwanted PRs. There is really nothing deep or intellectual about all this. And there is no more insight I can get from this discussion.
to fcb2 Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
you are here to work and earn a living and have a better life, just like all Singaporeans who are here to earn a living, who want a better life. Aren’t you here for a better material well-being as well?
Yet, you are the 1st person to complain and criticize the citizens. This trend started on 31st Oct, you made the first challenge on Singaporeans 2 hours later calling us “dumb” and that PR and foreigners are more superior to average Singaporeans. Do you have any respect for anyone? Perhaps you should look in the mirror and reflect upon your postings – they are unconstructive and an utter waste of time.
Given your maturity, I’m surprised that you are a PHD student. My government shouldn’t have given you the scholarship. With your attitude, nobody will welcome you or your family. Wish you all the best in your career and lots of luck if you want to be promoted to team leader.
My advice is that you stop wasting your time complaining here and spend more constructive time focusing on your work instead.
low cost-low tech Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
singapore is robin hood, robbing who to help who ??
Kevin Says:
November 10th, 2009 at 9:30 am
In response to some of the comments directed to me, I agree that we should not encourage people who migrate here long term without contributing significantly to the economy. And I like to believe most people agree to this statement too.
In my preceding paragraph, the ambiguity lies with “significant” contribution. I did a quick search on Singapore PR qualifications and noted that one important criteria is that those on working pass need to show that they earn SGD30K the last year. I would imagine the policy makers took this rule to also mean that students with potential to generate SGD30K when working are also good to stay.
In other words, would I be fair to say that those who opposed to low-skilled PR would prefer that the 30K be adjusted upwards? 30K is about $2+K per year (including AWS and a month bonus), which I think is about the average starting pay of diploma and degree holders combined (fair?).
I also sense that there is an undercurrent that there is a lot of PRs who are exploiting loopholes to become PR, without meeting the 30K ballpark at all (e.g., coffee shop owners).
Generally right?
adiemuso Says:
November 10th, 2009 at 10:02 am
time has since changed. living standards have changed. there will be some who are unable to cope with this. and the speed has further compounded that struggle and widen the divide between the have n have nots.
it is a curse of development. study the rest of the world economies, and then you wont be surprised to find similar stories.
SG can no longer compete solely on costs think China, India, Indonesia. the economy has to move up the value chain. competition provides an avenue for sorting out the weak.
missing out on opportunities should not drive up anti competition sentiments. protectionism is not in our long term interest. it is a selfish and short term thinking.
law of nature dictates evolution. the strong feed on the weak. that will not change. however, it can be alleviated. how much depends on our willpower.
adiemuso Says:
November 10th, 2009 at 10:04 am
for all the altruism being espoused. how many have put that into action?
to Kevin Says:
November 10th, 2009 at 10:22 am
I don’t think some of the PRs I see are even making 30k. Maybe I’m wrong. Or maybe there are certain loopholes they are exploiting, eg one PR can bring in another family member to be PR?
low cost-low tech Says:
November 10th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
law of nature dictates evolution. the strong feed on the weak. that will not change.
Birds also migrate, in response to changes in food availability, habitat or weather.
you're in omy Says:
November 10th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
http://news.omy.sg/News/Local%2BNew...
Elite Says:
November 22nd, 2009 at 4:35 am
Please stop the mentality that studying in a top school either locally or overseas is considered “elite”. I always find that comment hilarious. What exactly is so “elite” about people from better ranked universities? Please enlighten me. Is it because they are considered having higher status than those who have not studied in a highly ranked college? I personally know of people who have not completed university and yet command a salary many here can only dream of.
Secondly to all the PRs reading, you’ve come to Singapore in search for a better future, so please stop complaining because you owe our country for giving you an opportunity.
to Elite Says:
November 22nd, 2009 at 5:16 pm
1) There is no top school in Singapore.
2) Yes, to your 2nd question.
3) I’m sure you know of yada yada blah blah. People like you who pin your self esteem and hope and dreams on statistical outliers and knowingly blind to common logic are the very epitome is how poor education and good education differ. As well as the ensuing disaster of being poorly educated.
Onehubster Says:
November 30th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
This page OneHub summarizes the benefits of Singapore Citizen. It comes with full comparison for every sector: childcare, healthcare, housing, education, etc. There will definitely be pros and cons; but be open-minded.
Cheerios,
Onehubster
cleaner PR Says:
December 7th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Lover jailed for torching fish farm
Sat, Dec 05, 2009
The Straits Times
Lover jailed for torching fish farm
China national sobbed and said if she were to be jailed, she might lose her PR status. -ST
A CLEANER who had a dispute with her lover over financial and personal matters torched his fish farm, causing damage of more than $200,000.
Yesterday, Liu Gui Ling, 37, a Chinese national, was jailed for nine weeks by Community Court Judge Soh Tze Bian for mischief.
cleaner PR 2 Says:
December 7th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
oh wow…cleaners and alleged arsonists are now part of the PR’s profile. Well done!
Leavin Says:
December 18th, 2009 at 12:59 am
all i can say is… i’m one singaporean who can’t wait to get out of this island
lanista Says:
December 20th, 2009 at 12:51 am
Why “S pass holders” which are supposed to be only semi-skilled workers earning $1800 per month allowed to apply for Singapore Permanent Residence status? These semi-skilled workers are direct competitors to our local ITE, poly, fresh uni grads and many of them are employed in positions such as clerks, administrative officer, marketing assistant, civil engineer/consultants, quantity surveyers… These jobs can easily be taken by singaporean or existing PRs but are going to S pass holders because the fact is that companies pay these S pass only 1000-1200 but declare that they are paying 1800 to 2400 to these foreigners. The foreigners are willing to repay the extra salary by hyped “house rental fee”, “food expense”… just to officially clear the book. This phenomenon should be avoid because by taking the unqualified foreigners at lower cost, Singapore will lose its reputation as a centre of quality. Productivity and quality of employee has been on the red recently and we cannot just trying to deflate the salary by employing foreigners at cheap price. The same problems goes to the Q1 pass holders which only requires a $2500 salary. Are these S pass and Q1 pass holders considered talents? These people if they want to sink root here, must demonstrate a track record of high quality work experience in Singapore, this can only be demonstrated through at least 3 years of employment in Singapore. No where in the world that a foreign workers can apply for PR after just 6 months of stay like in Singapore. It’s time to relook at the entire PR application process and approval criteria.
why Says:
December 20th, 2009 at 3:58 am
singapore pr is just valid for 5 years and provides a little flexibility to foreigners. these S and Q pass people do not go and buy flats or in any way cause trouble. without a PR, they will be stuck at a low-paying exploiting dead-end jobs for years. with a PR, they get a little extra money n safety. such people never qualify for citizenship. if u have issues, think about these PRs. they have bigger problems in life. low pay and exploitative conditions and locals who dont want them. simply, an undignified life. but then i guess a lazy slob of a singaporean deserves better than an untalented S-pass holder. ur govt knows better, hence the policy.
why2 Says:
December 20th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
why be antagonistic?
u made good points, but r u sure locals “dont want them”? these PRs are still cheap even after getting PR, and lots of companies still hire them over locals. haven’t you seen the jobs of uncle auntie cleaners being taken over by these low-skilled people?
for every pitiful non-lazyslob pr, there are many more needy locals who are at the mercy of the elite policymakers’ policies.
don’t forget PRs still have their home countries to go back to. the poor locals can’t just quit singapore unlike the elites.
the fact is the FT policy is a boo boo. implementation was terrible. no amount “cooperation” from the media, such as writing about “several hundreds” of foreign-born ns boys, will help undo the problems created.
i hope singaporeans will vote wisely to give the ruling party and policymakers a signal that there’s A LOT of room for improvement and we demand top quality policies and implementation given that these elite policymakers are making the TOP SALARIES IN THE WORLD. and we want accountability.
cynic Says:
December 20th, 2009 at 11:57 pm
the ft policy has only been good at further widening the income gap, exacerbating the woes of this island nation whose Gini coefficient is among the worst in the world.
the true ft have come to genuinely add value, create jobs and further push up the salaries of locals, but these locals are already at the upper echelons. the high income earners make higher income.
on the other hand, the low-skilled ft have instead push down the salaries of those at the bottom rung. as mentioned above by why2, one observable example is that our local cleaners have been displaced by cheaper foreigners. if you listen to radio talk shows on 938 and 958, you would have heard the local bosses lamenting about the recent tightening of ft inflows. they prefer to hire the cheap foreign labour.
why3 Says:
December 21st, 2009 at 8:26 am
singaporeans, dont hire cheap foreigners for the sake of singapore. pay a little extra for your citizens.
i wonder why local bosses dont hire singaporeans when this problem is so severe. dont they care about fellow citizens. often i see elderly people selling tissue paper in food courts and 90% of locals cant spare 2$ for such elderly. same goes
for cheaper maids instead of singaporean maids. instead of paying a little more to their own citizens, people either want to reduce the inflow of foreigners. or bring them in and let them live in poor conditions, i.e., conditions in which they cant imagine themselves to live but are okay with these cheap fts to live. and when their job is done, kick them out with whatever they have saved. either way, the govt has to take care of this problem since everyone has to optimize their own costs.
cynic Says:
December 21st, 2009 at 1:08 pm
the current poll at http://www.temasekreview.com says “Relentess influx of foreigners into Singapore” is the “single most important issue on the minds of voters in the next general election”.
this time i think it’s quite hard for the PAP to quickly resolve all the issues created by their controversial ft policy and its bad implementation.
maybe they’ll give us money again, like those NSS, ERS and GST rebates. they’ll probably do it just before the election, timing it to get the biggest effect.
they can call it “FTPHA” or Foreign Talent Policy Hardship Allowance. ha!.
John Says:
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:41 am
They are already addressing the unhappiness. All of a sudden, PRs find themselves paying 3 times more for their children’s school fees. But my question is: Are they admitting they have shortchanged the citizens?
isit Says:
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:54 am
the smart PRs will leave singapore for better places. its the helpless PR who will be stuck in singapore due to a lack of choice. not all such PRs can get citizenship. why should a PR suffer for an inferior citizen who had the opportunity but could do nothing but beg from the government. singapore already is not the most preferred choice for expats, with this hatred, it will become worse.
isit2 Says:
December 22nd, 2009 at 1:36 am
Disagree.
PRs, smart or helpless, love Singapore. We have seen countless surveys, polls, reviews and Singapore has always been one of the top city welcomed by expats. It may not be the most preferred but it will continue to be the top few cities.
Question back to you, why should a hardworking, smart citizen suffers over an inferior, lazy PR due to FT policies.
isit Says:
December 22nd, 2009 at 1:44 am
a smart citizen will never suffer due to a lazy PR.
he will earn better, have subsidies and can build up on top faster than a PR with similar capability. the truth is in all this discussion, citizens never realize that they may not be good enough sometimes.
and u r rite. PRs love singapore, its the singaporeans they dont love
anyways, am glad they are increasing the fees for PRs. now, the long overdue Nobel Prize will finally come.
isit2 Says:
December 22nd, 2009 at 2:18 am
Right, similiarly, a PR will never suffer due to an “inferior” citizen because our policies ensure almost equal opportunity between the two. Which is a main frustration for citizens because no other country is as expat-friendly. PR should be a happy lot.
Yeah, sometimes, citizens may not be good enough…. Other times, they just lack the opportunities or see their career taken away by interior PRs, in their own country. I wonder how the PRs will feel if the same happens in their native country.
Well, citizens are indifferent whether PRs love or hate singaporeans. But PRs should be thankful to the policies…..perhaps PRs ought to pay more significant taxes to show their gratitude to the SG govt.
isit Says:
December 22nd, 2009 at 2:39 am
why should two people pay different taxes for the same job. this is exactly the attitude which will drive the good PRs away, which is true in the case of Singapore.
if differences need to exist, then laws to protect PRs must be there. like laws to regulate apartment rentals so that they dont fall victims to greed.
as long as one does the job properly, pays taxes and obeys the laws, no gratitude to SG in needed.
singaporeans have a head start with good education. in spite of this, if they can be replaced by foreigners, something is wrong with them. they are a liability. in a capitalist society, their lives can not be subsidized. if u think its cheap labor, then realize, that singaporeans or anyone deserves that pay. take it or leave it. its a global economy and u have to take the negatives with the positives.
often i hear make PRs do NS. i say, make a policy. whoever does NS , can become SG citizen.
isit2 Says:
December 22nd, 2009 at 3:26 am
I’m not sure why you are questioning the premium when this is the benchmark across other countries. Perhaps you can share your native country’s or other countries policies to attract talent. Undoubtably, there are good PRs that Singapore wants to retain, but flood gates have opened and we see all kinds of PRs.
Regulate rentals???? I can’t believe this. Can you put up a stronger argument? Both public and private apartments are already out of local’s reach and it’s partly due to the influx of PRs.
If PRs are complaining about the affordability of rentals, I question their contribution to Singapore as they are probably cheap labour anyway. Like you said, take it or leave it.
If you have gone through Singapore’s education from start, you would probably understand there are many areas for improvment. Let me position in another way. If the SG education system really meet your expectations, PRs will not have good jobs. Sometimes, the system is the barrier for citizens to get the job opportunities they desire.
PRs give too much credit to the policies and undermine the citizens. No surprises as system are indeed pro-non-citizens. Locals will know better.
low cost-low tech Says:
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:25 am
wow, didnt know singaporeans are liabilities & being subsidized by PRs ???
with the wayang education fee increases, we better thank PRs for also subsidizing our education, medical, defence, civil order, & many others.
middleclass Says:
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:36 am
It’s a case of too little too late. Most believe that younger Singaporeans are politically apathetic and the older generations have given up. I don’t know. When you are pushed into a corner and against the wall there’s no other way out but to fight back. I’m eagerly waiting for the next GE to see what happens.
cynic Says:
December 22nd, 2009 at 10:43 am
as i said, vote wisely.
now a minister has come out to apologise for lapses in healthcare planning. i wonder if this means he will take full responsibility, in a step towards more accountability. but this could be an election ploy, a tactic to test the waters to see what tactic works best.
as one can easily tell, they and the media are together fervently preparing for the next election. yesterday it’s triple the school fees for PR kids, today it’s an apology, tomorrow it will be more goodies.
don’t be tricked! if they win another easy majority, it gives them a signal that we are ok with what they have delivered. then it will be more foreigners, more upward “adjustment” of ministerial salaries, more GST, more investment losses, more once-in-50-years excuses and perhaps another mas selamat affair with no accountability and a simple too-bad-it-happened-what-to-do explanation.
cynic2 Says:
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:21 am
they raised GST to “help the poor”. don’t spout half truths.
http://www.mof.gov.sg/budget_2007/g...
“the Government will be able to harness the additional revenue to help the lower-income to the extent that they will be better off than without the GST increase.”
according to the above theory, the poor must have been better off with the GST increase. so i expect GST will be further raised to further help the poor to be much much better off than they are now.
maybe GST at 20%?
cynic2 Says:
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:57 am
“the true ft have come to genuinely add value, create jobs and further push up the salaries of locals, but these locals are already at the upper echelons. the high income earners make higher income.”
this will also push up the ministerial salary benchmark. haha
now i understand the ft strategy: get good ft to push up salaries at the top, but also get cheap ft to push down salaries at the bottom so singaporeans will be kept busy and have no time to complain!
isit Says:
December 22nd, 2009 at 3:57 pm
Ok, i agree somewhat with what you say. Actually, there is some merit. Singaporeans should be given priority in certain things like medical, education, etc. But, Singaporeans should treat foreigners with respect and not exploit the poor ones. That will be good.
I am actually quite privileged and well educated. My wife and I earn well. We have been foreigners as students, workers as PR, and are eligible for citizenship too. I never
looked at Singapore from money point of view. I simply like the place. Only recently, I started to read Straits Times to learn more about Singapore and I noticed this divide.
I am glad I did not know about this when I was studying here.
I hope the govt can do something to make all groups happy. I hope Singapore turns into the utopia I was thinking it was in the last few years.
Good luck then to all
isit2 Says:
December 22nd, 2009 at 10:40 pm
Likewise, PRs and foreigners should treat Singaporeans with more respect and not just take things for granted because the policy supports this. No matter how privileged or well-educated PRs are, calling Singaporeans “liability” and undermining citizens in SG forums go to show how ignorant and disrespectful some PRs are. Imagine how you will feel in your own native country if your expats express the same attitude towards you.
Citizens will welcome you and integrate you as part of their lives if you display the right attitude. Things were better in the past when the optimal amount of foriegn talents are here. Everyone was indeed happier. The issue is when we have too many PRs and foreigners in such a short period, the quality declines and things are not in control…
isit2 Says:
December 22nd, 2009 at 10:57 pm
cynic2 and middleclass,
I considered one of the younger singaporeans, <30. I wished I could vote but it seems it may not happen in my lifetime.
But at least I can express my views in forums like these. Given the current changes in policies, I'm positive that my views (together with many thousands Singaporeans) are heard by the ministries. We'll see how things change for the better.
middleclass Says:
December 23rd, 2009 at 9:40 am
isit: i would like to believe that Singaporeans are among the most open and inclusive society as we believe in meritocracy. Personally I have nothing against foreign talents who come to Singapore and contribute. However I have everything against the carelessly open import of cheap labours that is just another excuse of getting slave labors or as you put it yourself – exploiting the poor ones. Actually you should care just as much if you take the long term view and genuinely wants to take up Singaporean citizenship. How would your children end up if the tables are turn? Maybe then you would understand?
middleclass Says:
December 23rd, 2009 at 9:51 am
isit2: Status quo usually don’t change unless there’s a push factor or until enough people stand up and say enough is enough. Nobody is going to rock the boat other than the people overboard.
What we have learnt from the past is that there will be cosmetic work to touch up the pig when an election is near after which things just gets continue to stink as badly.
I’m already planning for my kids’ future. Send them overseas to study and get citizenships. Then maybe they can come back to Singapore and work as FTs. Singapore as it is now is really just a transit hotel and a big business park. Somewhere along the line we have ceased to be a nation when GDP and ruthless efficiency became more important than it’s people.
isit2 Says:
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:41 am
middleclass: that sums up pretty nicely. thank you.
NTU Says:
December 25th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
83% of NTU Students Union are NOT reassured by PM’s speech that the interest of Singapore citizens will always come first.
WOW. Surprisingly, this still gets published in a government website. Whatever happened to self censorship!?
http://app.reach.gov.sg/reach/Defau...
lky Says:
December 27th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Over time, the MM says, Singaporeans have become “less hard-driving and hard-striving.” This is why it is a good thing, the MM says, that the nation has welcomed so many Chinese immigrants (25 percent of the population is now foreign-born). He is aware that many Singaporeans are unhappy with the influx of immigrants, especially those educated newcomers prepared to fight for higher paying jobs. But taking a typically Darwinian stance, the MM describes the country’s new subjects as “hungry,” with parents who “pushed the children very hard.” If native Singaporeans are falling behind because “the spurs are not stuck into the hide,” that is their problem.
UNQUOTE
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2...
kyky Says:
December 28th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
wrong. it’s not 25 percent. it’s actually 36 PERCENT.
in other words, more than one-third of the people here are foreigners and PRs (both groups are foreign born).
that means less than two-thirds are true blue singapore citizens.
facts: 4.99 million population, comprising of 3.20 million citizens, 0.53 million PRs, and 1.25 million non-residents. reference:
channelnewsasia link
i hope i don’t see the day when citizens form the minority here.
james Says:
December 28th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
i remember they were using 6.5M as a “planning parameter”. if citizens remain at 3.2M, it will be just about right to squeeze citizens into the minority! 3.3M foreign-born vs 3.2M citizens. nice!
certainty hope so Says:
December 28th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
well, if the immigrants are “hungry” and up for a fight with the locals, that’s good.
Somehow, I don’t see as many as described by lky. A significant lot are lazy, are here to get as much benefit and then retire in their native land. Lack of quality control, so many sub-par immigrants are crowding here.
tryingout Says:
June 21st, 2010 at 4:52 pm
having lazy FTs in our midst is not necessary a bad thing. This will make the locals relatively more productive & in demand.
Can you imagine what will happen if just 1million of the top Chinese or Indians are to arrive in SG to compete for our jobs?
master universe Says:
November 30th, 2010 at 4:46 pm
You get to buy landed property when you are citizen! That is worth tons in the long run!!
we welcome them Says:
November 30th, 2010 at 6:16 pm
FTs: we welcome them with open arms; they rent our condos and give us good investment yield. Life is GOOD!
11 year old GEP student Says:
April 10th, 2011 at 9:17 pm
I am a GEP student.
I am 11 years old.
I believe that some Singaporeans are naturally more intelligent that some PRs that are in Singapore. As ZYY has said up there, the Government only took about 2-3 months to respond to her request to be a PR.
If you compare the average Singaporean pay to the average PR pay, the PR pay will be higher.
A simple reason – Singapore only accepts the more “intelligent” and the more likely to contribute to Singapore’s economy (etc.).
But if you compare the “lower” half of the PR’s mother country and Singapore’s “lower” half, Singapore will be the one that is more “intelligent”.
This is just me expressing my opinion.
dear 11 year old GEP student Says:
April 11th, 2011 at 9:25 am
school (gep / not) is really nothing & useless. see pap. how do u know Singapore only accepts the more “intelligent” ? you already say the Government only took about 2-3 months to respond to her request to be a PR. Is Singapore Government intelligent or stupid ? think again.
Yo Says:
April 11th, 2011 at 7:07 pm
The government is not stupid. It’s the citizens who are stupid to give them a blank cheque “mandate”. The government merely deliver on the mandate given.
kenichi Says:
April 12th, 2011 at 11:28 am
Dear 11 year old GEP student,
What is GEP?
Khagan Says:
April 12th, 2011 at 5:05 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gifted...
kenichi Says:
April 13th, 2011 at 12:55 pm
I half suspected it refers to the Gifted Elective Programme. My question is, why identify onself as a GEP student? Does it have a bearing on the post? That said, I must commend the writer for being so well-read and familiar with current issues at such a young age.
Yaya Says:
April 13th, 2011 at 1:27 pm
Yaya lor. What else.
abc Says:
April 13th, 2011 at 9:33 pm
Highly doubt GEP = gifted elective programme.
If he can get into GEP with that level of grammar, the government is truly stupid.
def Says:
April 13th, 2011 at 10:57 pm
standards are dropping cos spurs are not stuck in their hide. need more competition from foreign students.
abc Says:
April 14th, 2011 at 8:15 pm
true, but with so many crying foul even at current level,do you really think the trend can persist
def Says:
April 14th, 2011 at 9:37 pm
target is 6.5million. always remember. our excellent leaders aren’t afraid of pushing ahead with tough policies that are beneficial in the long run.
ghi Says:
April 17th, 2011 at 3:10 pm
yes, latest 2011 singapore government’s plans on 15 april are still based on 6.5 million population figure as assumption for the concept plan http://www.straitstimes.com/Breakin...
def Says:
April 17th, 2011 at 8:30 pm
6.5 million is good for the country. btw, UK recently said their 2 million increase in population over a decade is too much and has created problems in their society. goodness, I think it’s because they have incompetent government who are paid too little. they should learn from us. I’m sure our manpower and home affairs (in charge of immigration) ministers can help them better plan their immigration policies. UK is such a big country with 60 million people and they can’t even attract the right talent to run their country. what a letdown, considering they were once our colonial masters.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...
jkl Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 2:50 pm
To def
you truly speak like colonial minions that so richly deserve to be despised & trampled on.
yes, let’s see how our most competent & highly paid Singapore Government has sort out all the problems created with the 2 million increase in the last few years & Singapore can go on to have the 6.5 million population.
? Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 4:58 pm
UK has 60 million people and they can’t cope with a 2 million increase (a mere 3% increase). What makes you think SG can cope with a 50-60% increase? You mean being highest paid in the world guarantees the impossible can be done? Look the track record of how many miracles they have performed after being paid so much. You pay peanuts you get monkeys, you pay millions what do you get?
Khagan Says:
April 18th, 2011 at 6:23 pm
“You pay peanuts you get monkeys, you pay millions what do you get?”
Hmmm, millions of monkeys? LOL
Since peanuts = very few S$, and monkeys = very/relatively few monkeys; so, millions of peanuts should get us millions of monkeys, I think! LOL
But in Singapore’s case, those millions of “monkeys” are the millions (or at least 2 or 3 million) of Singapore citizens who gave its government the power to pay its Ministers millions of S$ every year!
Maybe that was not why the PAP was voted into power, but the PAP was voted into power anyway, and has been voted into power for the past half-century; so since they’re so powerful, obviously there’s nothing that these millions of “monkeys” can do to stop its Ministers from being paid millions of S$ every year!
This is just simple cause and effect, isn’t it? LOL
mno Says:
April 20th, 2011 at 9:13 pm
def, you are a joke !