Engineering and Technology Careers are Not Valued – Singapore is “High Cost Low Tech”
May 24th, 2008
Among news like a monk and an infidel GP doctor making six-figure income, there’s an interesting piece in ST two days ago – ex-top civil servant Ngiam Tong Dow worries that Singapore is becoming “high cost, low tech”.
“The United States has overtaken Britain because while some of their best went to Wall Street, their best still go into engineering.”
His concern is valid.
In Singapore, the best JC students are attracted by glitzy ads and employment survey reports (see example) glamorizing the banking and finance industry and repeatedly highlighting that top dollars are made there.
For engineers and techies, they only get to hear things like “with a basic degree, you get to wash test tubes”.
Or that engineering and tech talent are a dime a dozen from China and India.
It is no wonder that students die to get into the in-demand courses like business, finance and accounting, while engineering and technology-related courses are dumping grounds.
See my previous posts on getting out of engineering and dead end career.
We all know that techies are undervalued in sunny Singapore. You’re a techie, you make 5k and be happy. Stay happy. Else get out and go to countries like USA, Japan, or even China and Taiwan where tech talent are much more highly valued than over here. Or, get into banking or do a sales job.
So Mr Ngiam worries about the lack of local high-tech talent.
There’s always a simple solution (right?): Start paying top dollars for engineers.
Start with tech-related ministries and agencies like Mindef and MDA. Then, move to tech-related GLCs like Singapore Technologies and JTC.
Pay millions for, say, the Chief Innovator in DSTA and ask the media to cover this ad nauseum (much like the way life sciences were glamorized in the not too distant past).
Hopefully we get to confuse the students again.
Howcome Says:
May 24th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Ya meh? The techies I know & work with are paid quite a lot leh. 10k+ is quite common. Our juniors are earning like 7k already… not including bonuses.
Where Says:
May 24th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
@Howcome, which tech companies pay 7k for freshies?
Howcome Says:
May 24th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Sorry, by juniors I mean those with about 5-7 yrs lah. Not fresh grads. I’m not that young
And to be fair, let me qualify it further: techies in foreign banks. The highest fresh grad *techie* pay I heard in the banks circle is 5.5k.
Ex-engineer Says:
May 24th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Yes techies in banks. But if you are a non-techie in bank you probably earn twice to thrice as much.
Personally,I used to be an engineer, and for the same reasons of low pay I left for the finance sector. Now I earn 4-5x more than I used too as an engineer. It’s just a very tough and unrewarding life to be an engineer unless you discover some groundbreaking technology.. for a finance guy, you just do simple maths, charge high commissions and rake in the $$.
Where Says:
May 24th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
@Howcome, ah… so it’s still the banking & finance industry. duh.
Howcome Says:
May 24th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
But it’s *techies* of banking and finance industry, see. The topic is that techies in singapore are unappreciated and underrewarded, right? And that like Ex-engineer, they are leaving engineering in droves to the NON-TECHNICAL part of banking and finance industry. There’s a difference like Ex-engineer said!
My point is that it’s still possible to be a techie and not happy with just 5k/month but much more.
Howcome Says:
May 24th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
@Ex-engineer, if you don’t mind–what do you do exactly? Was it tough to switch? 4-5x more–does it mean you’ve broken the 200k pa mark? I suspect I’m probably near the glass ceiling for techies. Gotta plan for the next 5 years or so…
wait and wait Says:
May 24th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
There are many qualified Filipino engineers and Indian IT programmers working in Singapore. Their pay is average $3k to $6k. They are very happy. Because they work 10 years can go home buy land, build house and live happily ever after. Companies don’t need to increase pay to $10k. Because when pay is only $5k many foreigners happily snap up already. Blame the government if you want. Ha.
Pages tagged "careers" Says:
May 24th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
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Ex-engineer Says:
May 25th, 2008 at 12:28 am
I would think it’s tough to change considering most of my peers tried but didn’t manage to do so. I was one of the lucky ones.. but if you try hard enough I am sure it’s possible. I was an engineer for only 2 years though.. so that might have made it easier. I trade for a living nowadays.
CJ Says:
May 25th, 2008 at 7:51 am
honest truth is that people in the finance industry are over paid. The reason why the industry can do so is because they are consistently ripping off customers with low interest rates and high risks products.
CJ Says:
May 25th, 2008 at 7:54 am
it is easier to get to the finanace industry than you think, especially for engineers. Those who find it hard to switch usual lacks the communication required for front office or the operational knowledege for back office roles.
Howcome Says:
May 25th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Hey CJ, it’s a free market. Nobody mandates the finance industry to overpay their people. It’s like an overvalued stock–instead of screaming it’s overvalued, just go with the trend and sell on high lor.
(1) Interest rate is a macroeconomy variable–it is bigger than just about “ripping off customers”.
(2) High risk products have high risk because they have high potential returns as well, or else obviously nobody would be stupid enough to buy them.
You don’t seem to know about finance a lot–so how do you know how easy or difficult it is to get into it?
Chump change Says:
May 25th, 2008 at 10:30 am
200k pa sgd-equiv is chump change for someone with 5-7 years experience in New York and Hong Kong.
Howcome Says:
May 25th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Yeah, of course, Chump change. My friend in New York working as an IT contractor earns around 500k SGD pa. But I like Singapore leh
Nicholas Says:
May 25th, 2008 at 11:39 am
While there is some truth in this article, I feel that there are other factors to consider.From what I know,not everyone in the banking industry earn big bucks.And even if some of them do,what does it come at the expense of?Longer working hours?More stressful working environment?Higher need of taking risk?Higher chance of getting retrenched or sacked during a financial crisis? Personally,I m an engineer working in a MNC in the oil and gas industry for the past 2 years since graduation from uni.I am already drawing a pay of 5K/mth.Compared to most of my peers who have switched to the banking industry,I think I am much better paid in terms of pay. Nevertheless,I do know of friends in the banking sector who are paid very well.But it is by merit that they are paid so well.Eventually,one has to be discerning and not think that everyone who joins the banking sector can expect higher pay than the engineers. Everything still boils down to your ability and desire to succeed.
Howcome Says:
May 25th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
In 2 years your salary has increased to 5k already? That’s very good!!
al Says:
May 25th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
I for one, agree that engineers, for all their expertise, are underpaid. But then again, its the same old demand supply theory again. Not everyone in banks are paid so highly. Join the ops department and you’ll get a monthly paycheck just over 3k, similar to what an average engineer earns in an MNC.
Remember the report on the highest earners in Singapore and their academic background? The fact is that most of them possess an engineering degree. And the next fact? They are mostly working in banks as well. So am I contradicting myself? Probably. But my point was demand and supply.
Engineers and finance graduates are highly sought after in banks and the limited number of places in front office positions mean that only a selected few get the golden paychecks. Thus the question is: should engineers get similar pays in their respective industries then?
I’m not sure if it’s up to us to say. Everyone wants big money in their respective careers. And the reason why banks are paying such big bucks is because they are the primary tool of financing the economy. Without them, companies would have difficulties in hedging against risks, taking loans for expansions or evaluating their shareholders’ value.
You can say that engineers create innovations of efficiency, govt bodies manage inflow and outflow of foreign investments and scientists and doctors improve and save lives. But which industry should earn the most? Who actually have an answer to this? I know I don’t.
Nicholas Says:
May 25th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Just want to cite a good friend of mine as an example. He works in a reputable investment bank and earns thrice of my annual income. Like myself, he has also jus graduated and has only been working for 1 year. However, wef next month, he ll be switching job to a non investment banker one. Even though the pay cut will be significant, he has no regrets considering the exchange for freedom and a less stressful lifestyle. Like I said before, other than the monetary compensation, one has to weigh in other factors when considering his/her career. If you have the ability and the aptitude to go for the super high paying jobs, good for you. Otherwise, it’s not too bad to be an engineer. Yes. You probably won’t get paid as well as an investment banker. But you won’t be too miserly paid too. The worst thought to have is to naively think that just by joining the banking industry, any tom, dick and harry can make tons of money. If most of the students have this kind of thinking, I say good luck to them.
ScK Says:
May 26th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
wow..kinda interesting..juz found tis website nw..i m gg to NUS tis yr to study mechanical engineering..n anyone can i ask cause i do shorlisted for interview with BCA related sponsor companies>> capitaland, city developements and cpg corporation.. but found out that building n construction industry nt so lucrative at all huh?!
jimmy Says:
May 26th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
@Nicholas
wow!! 2 years experience got 5k..the annual increment damn high in oil industry…i assume ur starting pay around 3.2 to 3.5k.
PE Says:
May 26th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Guys, engineering is like the tortoise in the race, while finance industry is like the proverbial rabbit. As a rabbit you get high returns but your energy burns out fast, while as a tortoise if you can go on strong and steady for 10 years you will enjoy a relatively stress-free career and high returns.
PE is the short term for professional engineer and their going pay is 10K a month at least – I know of plenty and they are not expats, just singaporeans like you and me who stick to their jobs, build up on experience and reap their just harvests.
A young banking yuppie might earn 10K a month, but let’s see if he can sustain over the next 10 years. He will be able to hold on (burning his life out in the process) or change to a much less stressful job.
You decide which path you will choose ^^
Nicholas Says:
May 26th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
PE, I totally agree with your comments. I am a strong believer of the supply and demand theory. From a personal and selfish point of view, I am very happy to see friends and many people giving up on engineering and trying out their luck in the banking sector. I mean, don’t even hesitate. Just go for the glamour and glittering career in the banking sector. I look forward to the day when there are a shortage of engineering talents and people like myself will reap the benefits. And at the rate of talent depletion in engineering, I believe that the day is not too far off. I truly enjoy seeing the high oil price environment and I still get to enjoy relatively comfortable salary at a relatively low stress working environment. So to all the students who despise engineers and want to put on your branded ties and cuff links bankers wanna be, pls go all out to pursue your dreams. Good luck!
LYS Says:
May 27th, 2008 at 12:49 am
hi nicholas, tats just becos u r in the chemical engineering industry, not all engineering jobs are created equal…
Banker Says:
May 27th, 2008 at 9:28 am
Why do people think bankers lead a stressful life? I know some who are so relaxed they grow obese, and are paid by millions. I also know engineers who slog all their lives, on standby for 24 by 7, and still get miserably paid.
A case of sour grapes perhaps?
jimmy Says:
May 27th, 2008 at 10:18 am
which Engineering industry pay u the most after working 2yrs from fresh grad…(excluded OT pay)
Electronic>>>no
Aerospace>>no
Chemical>>yes good example is Nicholas
civil>>no
marine>>no
not true Says:
May 27th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
bankers who are stress free and earn millions compared with engineers who slog like hell and earn nothing is like comparing the cream of the crop with the bottom of the bucket.
remember we should look at majority at the whole – it could also well be the other way round. I also know of CTOs and PEs earning high 6 figure salaries per annum and bankers who earn a puny sum for their hard work.
it’s illogical saying sour grapes just to defend the industry you are in. Ler’s be objective.
Banker Says:
May 27th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
Maybe my comparisons are a little extreme. But i still think people in the finance industry here in Singapore make more money across the board. Look at the starting pay, look at the average pay, median pay, number of millionaire employees. Further, the number of CTOs and PEs aren’t a lot compared to SVPs or private bankers or ibankers. And if engineering is that good, u don’t need an MP and an ex-perm sec to come out to say engineering is worth the while. And unis and polys won’t have engineering as dumping grounds. And SMU and NUS BUS won’t be competing for top students for their business courses.
Howcome Says:
May 27th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Whenever the subject of rich people comes up, one of the first things that people always say is that: “Just because they’re rich doesn’t mean they’re happy”, or some variations of the same thing.
I wonder why.
After all, when we see poor people, we don’t feel compelled to say: “Just because they’re poor doesn’t mean they’re sad.”
banker fren Says:
May 27th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
my fren is only 30.
he works in the banking industry, goes to office at 930 & knocks off promptly at 6, & his monthly salary is 5 figure.
non-banker Says:
May 27th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
You said it right – the number of PEs and CTOs are a lot lesser than bankers, and naturally as a result millionaire employees among them would be lesser. This is a simple case of maths.
The focus now is on, why is banking so highly glamorized? Answer – because with banking you can achieve instant high gains due to commission (and for that matter, any sales job) Not true for engineering jobs, where you have to work your way up steadily. Youngsters nowadays look at fast gains and results (just look to the slimming centres nowadays – who needs exercise? But it is well known that exercise is the best way of losing weight)
And I also know a fren who’s an electrical engineer – he works for a US company and takes home a 5 figure salary too (in USD) but he’s singaporean. And he is not even 30.
begtodiffer Says:
May 27th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
I am an ex-engineer working in a bank as some calls it front office treasury role.
As for the question on why engineers are lowly paid compared to bankers, it all boils down how much money can you bring to the firm.
E.g. I used to work as R&D engineer, and I work together wih 10+ R&D engineers to innovate 1 product, and a assembly line with another set of product engineers, technicans and factory workers to produce the finished product. Besides of the huge human resources requirements, there are large capital expenditures e.g. machines, factories. The margin is low with high overheads (engineer pay is one major overhead).
In a bank on financial markets, there is product developement team called the quants, abt 3-4 people with phd in maths, who comes up with new structured products and risk management solutions, a desk of 3 traders who manage the risks, a few sales to push the product. There is a middle/back office settling the trades, etc. For a relative small operations, the pnl can be enormous at roughly 5% of volume, thus can be around USD25mio/yr. Divide the bounty between 5-10 FO staff, and you can see how much bonus they get.
wait and wait Says:
May 28th, 2008 at 11:38 am
begtodiffer
That’s the best answer! I think generally there are 2 sectors in any industry. (1)The people who help to create a product, and (2)the people who help to sell a product. Engineers fall into category (1). The more you pay them, the less profit the company make. Sales is in category (2). The more you pay them, means they are bringing more profit. Assume the sales earn 20% of total sales, so if they make $200k a year, means the company make $800k a year! A top sales always win a top engineer/lawyer/doctor/pilot handsdown. Sim Wong Hoo is the best example, he can easily become a engineer in a big MNC, but he chose to sell soundcards!
Careerwork Says:
May 28th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Also, are you aware that PE hold tremendous high responsibility and the reward is peanuts. Look at those PEs involved in the Nicholl Highway incident. Being charged and sued. May end up in jail .
A Professional Engineer (PE) is allow to submit plans and provide consultancy for a project. However, the market is competitive and thus the fees are miserable. cannot compare with a surgeon . Moreover, for a Civil PE , he is impossible to oversee the whole project without delegation. Unlike surgeon , he is in the ops room all the time and fully aware of the situation. But if something happened badly to the project, the PE has to face the music though may be fault due to his subordinates. So, worth it with peanut pay ?
Nicholas Says:
May 28th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
In response to your comments about PE being paid peanuts and made to shoulder heavy responsibilities, I beg to differ. Your example is skewed towards a one off Nicol Highway incident. But you cannot generalize this incident and deduce that all PEs will be made scapegoats if something happens. Engineering is more than one or two person’s efforts and decision. In an established multinational company, nobody makes a decision based on his whims and fancy. There are many systems, policies and various subject matter experts to comply and consult before a decision is arrived. And if some mishaps were to happen, investigation will be carried out. If the mishaps occurred as a result of flaws in systems and not due to negligence or wanton attitude of the employees, the employees will not be taken to task. In other words, it is easier to be an engineer than what most people will think. Coz we do not operate alone. Neither do we sit behind the desk all day long to do lengthy pages of calculations. And regarding the comment that PE are paid peanuts, I am surprised that 10K – 20K/mth is peanuts and butter to you. Based on the singapore labour force wage statistic for all age group, if you earn 10k – 20k/mth, you are already the top 5% earner. While it is little when compared to people like Mr Sim Wong Foo who earns millions of dollars a year, I still think that it is a respectable pay compared to majority of the Singaporean. Maybe you will like to share with us how much you are earning or expect to earn in order to qualify the peanuts comments.
Al C Says:
May 29th, 2008 at 9:53 am
After reading all your comments, I really do feel compelled to chip in my 2 cents worth.
My stand is that Singapore doesn’t really pay that well for its engineers and scientists (techies). While I agree that while techies cannot expect hefty bonuses like the bankers (as they are usually not directly involved with sales), too low pay will cause your tech people to worry and be distracted and not focus on the job. Thus the quality of work is likely to deteriorate.
I have a close friend who just completed a PhD in the defence engineering industry. He’s starting salary in Singapore is only 5k after slogging so hard, and that is one of the highest around. I have heard horror stories of other companies paying even lower than that. With this kind of mindset from employers, how can Singapore ever encourage its people (who are super practical and kiasu) to ever go into science and engineering?
Compare this to overseas engineering companies in Israel, where the starting pay for an undergrad (yes u-grad) is $6k SGD. Not absolutely fantastic, but good enough. I have also seen adverts for engineering teachers in Dubai with a 200k+ salary tax FREE.
So my advise would be the same as with many others:
Do engineering and get out of Sg. Stay in Sg, get out of engineering.
few years down the road Says:
May 30th, 2008 at 9:19 am
hi nicholas
agree with your supply & demand theory. oil industry is relatively comfortable now, but when it cannot find the bodies it wants, “foreign talents” will come in. this is like what is seen in other industries eg IT, engineering, banking. not so sure where u will be then.
SmartTrader Says:
May 30th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
I have been in Software Engineering for 10+ years and I can tell you that it is a lot of hard work , late nights and below average pay when compared to the people in the financial section. But we had our good days (remember the dotcom bubble), when everybody wants to be in Software (even actresses) and salary was rocketing.
Last few years, globalization has made Software Engineering not so attractive because you have to compete with Engineers from cheaper Asian countries and thus limit your salary. If Singapore engineer pay go up, it has to be justified with higher productivity (which may mean longer working hours) and better innovation (which is easier said than done).
The statements about demand supply is correct, as it more or less sums up the situation I described above. The only silver lining I see is that Singapore has highly motivated and skilled engineers compared to the cheaper Asian countries and many MNCs are aware of that, so they still depend a lot on us to provide their IT solutions.
One question, will the finance and banking industry one day face globalization like IT ? I remember reading that it was already happening with Accounting jobs going to India , but anybody can comment on this?
intern Says:
May 31st, 2008 at 4:05 pm
hi i am gonna be an intern at an oilngas mnc. i think the main reason y banks can pay so much is there r little costs to cover…. as compared to (for oil gas) huge refineries, chemical plants…
their construction, maintenance n operating costs amount to a lot…most engineers r employed in capital-intensive industries… so even sky-high oil prices translate to high profits… they will invest billions into new plants or better technology rather than give out as big fat bonuses or salaries compared to banks.
wat to invest in for banks? higher salaries to attract top talent !
few years down the road Says:
June 1st, 2008 at 10:41 am
hi Al C
did u advise your fren to go into teaching at uni or polys ? refer to http://www.salary.sg/2007/top-100-jobs-in-singapore-2007/#comment-1821
looks like the ivory towers of cushy academic world is better than the sg engineering industry.
Al C Says:
June 1st, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Few years down the road:
Haha thanks for your advice. Although it is true that the uni does pay better (much better) however, the figures alone can be misleading.
1. Its is VERY hard to get employed by local U if you are not from an elite uni or if you are not a famous researcher. Elite = Stanford, MIT, Beijing U….
2. The figures generated is based on the top academics in the uni. And not everybody gets to become full prof.
As for poly, seriously they don’t value PhD as much as masters with extensive work experience. And also poly don’t pay that well for fresh phd (4k starting).
So yeah well …..chances for PhD in Singapore are really limited. So who would really want to do PhD to innovate products in Singapore?
Shuen Pei Says:
June 1st, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Dawning sector in tech/engineering that draws attention nowadays – SOLAR and Renewable Energy. Exciting area for Sgp and the world.
Dawning Says:
June 1st, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Dawning, but will they last?
Solar and renewables are like life sciences a couple years back, EE engineering during the semicon boom years, and civil engineering some moons ago.
They never lasted.
Finance is still the safest and surest bet if you ask me. When you attain financial freedom earlier than your engineer peers, you can then afford to renew your science and solar your energy.
Shuen Pei Says:
June 2nd, 2008 at 11:20 pm
Dear Dawning,
Finance is the fundamental of modern economy. It forms the basis of all disciplines, and therefore, it’s everlasting. Technology, on the contrary are bubles.
Ages ago, chemistry was the in thing (remember frankenstein drinking bubling green chemical cartoons), when everyone thought chemistry was cool – Ka-BOOM!!
Then, there was civil engineering. Architect was a big deal, Pua Chu Kang was an admirable figurine profession. Same time, semiconductor boomed, where silicon valley (even women thought they can use some silicon.. emm) was bustling that it burst in late 90s’ along with all the IT that supports it, and asia financial crisis followed. Financial crisis was trailed by almost the same time as property price clashed.
So dear, nothing lasts. Finance may seem glamorous, now that it has been on the joy ride last 3.5yrs. But, you are right, one thing for sure though, financial sector makes milionaires in the shortest time. That, technology (even IT) can’t come near.
In other words, you can achieve financial freedom soonest if you were in finance (during the boom time that is). Don’t tell me hedge against the bad time and derivatives (how many retail investors know what are call and put?). Technology, on the other hand gives you the steady ride and cushions crashes and financial turmoils better.
So, here’s my word of wisdom (i think). If one is confident of timing the market, join finance/banking, toil your souls nite and day for 3-5 years, hopefully attained the infamous ‘financial freedom’ and get out! If one doesn’t have a clue what’s animals like bulls and bears gotta do with financial market, mold your heads in a square box, join engineering.
phew..
ex-engineer Says:
June 3rd, 2008 at 5:09 am
As a society’s economy progresses, the main contributor it’s GDP evolves from agriculture to manufacturing and on to services. This is evident in most modern developed economies i.e London and the US, just look at their makeup of GDP over the years. China is in her manufacturing phase now. Singapore never really had an agricultural phase but had a strong manufacturing phase. However, it’s time for the economy to expand in services for it to advance. Engineers sadly belong to the manufacturing era.. just like farmers used to belong to the agricultural phase.. that’s why the service industry is paying so much better than the manufacturing sector. This is why it’s hard for engineers to be paid more than service ppl i.e bankers or sales ppl, just as it’s harder for a salaried farmer to be paid more than an engineer.
Evolve with time or be obsolete..
Howcome Says:
June 3rd, 2008 at 7:14 am
“If one doesn’t have a clue what’s animals like bulls and bears gotta do with financial market, mold your heads in a square box, join engineering.”
OR
Learn about bears and bulls. Calls and puts and spreads and delta and greeks are NOT that hard…
Al C Says:
June 3rd, 2008 at 10:33 am
Hi Ex-engineer:
In a sense you are right, that services will come after manufacturing. The pay packet that is associated with each country is really dependent on which SPECIALIZED FIELD is valued by that country. For e.g,:
1. in England, footballers in the top two leagues are better paid than the average banker, lawyer, doctor because everyone values football there highly. The pay of the academics there suck like hell (compared to academics in Singapore).
2. In Israel, defence engineers are definitely more well paid then bankers (is there a huge Israelite investment bank??) because the country is always at war and they need the most innovative ideas. So in this country, manufacturing and innovation counts.
3. In Australia, tradesmen can be more well paid than professionals because the market is big and will continue to be for a long long time.
4. In other countries which are major suppliers of commodities/energy to the world, do not be surprised if the farmer is richer than the banker.
Sadly, this won’t be the case in Singapore because we are not front runners in technology (cos we are slow) and hence no one in the world will come to us for a specific technological need. And so we can only provide services.
The key to all this is SPECIALTY and the demand.
Al C Says:
June 3rd, 2008 at 10:42 am
One extra point to my previous post to ex-engineer: The problem with services is that it is NOT a skill and anyone can provide it.
The future danger is that with further education, cheaper labour from other countries such as Vietnam, China can replace us in the services industry. They are replacing us now in areas of construction, cleaning and F&B services. Soon they will replace us in Finance, Accounting and Management. We can still be competitive in areas such as Law and Medicine these fields can be country and area specific). Engineering is one field we can depend on in the long run cos it can be specialized. That said, it is not the elementary engineering which can make big money, but engo consulting and project management that can make big money. Just NOT in Singapore.
Al C Says:
June 3rd, 2008 at 10:48 am
Apologies for my verbosity,
.
The only engineering field that seems to pay off nowadays in Financial Engineering
Somehow that pays very well. Quants are slowly displacing the conventional trader and sales person in banks….so yeah in the end skill labour is still the way to go.
Shuen Pei Says:
June 4th, 2008 at 11:19 pm
Yes, manufacturers need backend service to market and service clients, which forms a SG&A for the company, pull out a report, a 20% of revenue is normal.
Financial services is different, what they have is good people to sell their services, smooth talker to market their financial products – they can afford a big pay check for their COGS is mainly just their payroll, no direct material like the case of manufacturer.
Agreed that Singapore has built a sturdy manufacturing base economy. Singapore needs the mix of manufacturing and financial services to feed its people from all walks of life. See.. manufacuring is needed to create the fundamental economic base and minimal spending power. This gives rise to group of retail investors who thinks they are a little savvy in investing their wealth (after they read up on bulls, bear, calls, puts and spreads). So, they created the demand for financial services, they created the need for institutional investors – and who created these? they are millions and millions of retail investors like you and me.
Now, here the catch, everyone of retail investor put $1000, hoping to reap $1200 a year later. And, the financial guy that made this happened has to make $1500 out of it (because he has to pay himself). Well, a lot of truths in this scenarios. Every retail investors make $200 and financial services guy make $300, years after years. Em… so where the extra $500 come from? Uncle Sam keep printing monies? Face it, after a lengthy vicious cycle, $500 made over the $1000 invested, comes from another $1000 of another retail investor who just jump in, and this other retail investor make his other $500 from the 3rd retail investor, it goes on and on… until one sunny day the bubble bursts. All 3 retail investors lost the $500 they made + the principles (because you still have to feed the highly paid financial guy).
One day, when investors decided to bail out – the whole chain will be affected, those time the market wrongly (those only invested and yet to reap the profit) hit worst. Even if then, we need financial services, we can’t afford to pay them.
Story is – there’s always the scary economic cycle. Whether or not to jump into financial services, i think it all depends on timing. THose that can’t time it right, like me, I call it a gamble.
few years down the road Says:
June 5th, 2008 at 7:56 am
i think the story goes like this …
the retail investor loses some of the money he puts in, & the banker is laughing at the money he makes from the retail investor ….
sg is becoming more like hong kong, a services economy, rather than manufacturing economy & let’s face it, even if sg needs a engr base, it still doesnt pay, compared to financials.
Careerwork Says:
June 7th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
I refer to what Nicholas mentioned about engineering where “Engineering is more than one or two person’s efforts and decision”. But, in a construction industry,a PE is qualified and will have to endorse all the structural plans before the building is allowed to be built. And who come after the PE if something goes wrong, be it his negligence or others such as his subordinates who did all the design ? The PE (Professional Engineer). He will need to face the music as BCA will come after whoever that endorsed all the plans. Read the Building Control Act and you may get frightened.
So, what is the reward if he has to be accountable and responsible with building contracts that may be more than $100 million ? The PE may earn $10-20 k after netting the overheads and expenditures. If you compare with a doctor, I say it is peanuts but come with a great burden. I am not refering to the wage statistic for all ages. One have to compare apple with apple. Professionals !
Bartholomew Says:
June 8th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
Engineering is an interesting field but it comes with a price to pay for those engaged in this line. There are all sorts of work hazards and one must be careful in going about the daily chores. More so if you are working in a shipyard, steel manufacturing, construction, workshops, etc. You put on the requisite PPEs and expect to sweat a lot especially for those working on sites. Even for engineering directors, they have to sweat from time to time at the worksites or workshop floors. Even those engineering staff working in so-called clean environment may be exposed to all sorts of health hazards. The starting average pay for engineering graduates may be slightly higher than other disciplines but in the long run, it makes no difference.
Just look at the accident statistics – when was the last time you heard of a work accident in a bank or media agency? Every now and then the news will announce fire or other accidents at so-and-so factory premise, with so many dead and so many injured. Rarely will an accident happen in a trading floor.
Even if engineering pays, the dirty and hazardous work environment associated with engineering puts off students from taking up this interesting discipline. Such is the situation globally, as people are getting discerning and wise. Parents and friends are knowledgeable and most would advise them not to pursue a course of study in engineering. Maybe Financial Engineering or Software Engineering but not traditional engineering.
If you are already in engineering, please do not get discouraged. Just follow the safety procedures and protect yourselves – if there’s none, bring up to your management. The government through the WSH Act is coming down hard on errant supervisors or owners of the premises. I rest my case.
Nicholas Says:
June 8th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Careerwork, I m not working in the construction industry. But common sense tells me that you do not get one PE to endorse a multi million project like Nicol Highway etc. I think all the talk about PE getting paid peanuts for the responsibilities they have to undertake is overplayed. In every line, the higher you climb, the more responsibilities you ll need to shoulder. Eventually, you’ve got to understand that in any well established organization (pls take note that I am talking about well established MNCs. Not shoddy SME firms), systems shd be in place to manage work and responsibility. The way you talk about how things work in the engineering industry is overly simplistic. If the likelihood of getting fired or jailed because of industrial accidents is really that high, I m sure there won’t be so many people who are still willing to risk their freedoms to work as engineers or managers. I m not sure if you are aware of how the energy in your house comes about. Or the petrol that you use to run your vehicles. Or the fuel that you use to cook your food. No offence to people working in the banking industry. But there are also many brilliant people working in the oil and gas industry to ensure that all the above daily needs I’ve mentioned are being met. Are these people not smart enough to realise it if an engineering career is really that bad? Well. True it may be that money is an important factor to consider in one’s career choice. But I would like you to pause a while and think outside the monetary factor. Can the world or Singapore survive if there are no engineers? Just because a profession pays the most, does it mean that everyone has to flock to that profession? Other than the supply and demand theory, I think that by pursuing a career that one is passionate or good at is not only a display of honesty to what you want, but also a contribution to what our society needs. Other than the money you bring home at the end of the month, I guess the other question you should be asking yourself is what have you contributed to this society or the growth of the economy.
Cheers.
careerwork Says:
June 9th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
In a nutshell, I mean PE does not deserve the remuneration as compare with their heavy responsiblity. Could be due to the local system or the demand and supply curve. You are right. The society cannot go without engineers. Engineers are valuable and should demand a better status as compared to doctors and lawyers. I am afraid over here still not. You pay an engineer well and the engineer will put their heart and soul into the work. Just like in a construction contract, if the tender sum is low due to undercut and competition, the works will be substandard. Will a cardologist conduct an operation with 50 % chances and paid only few thousand dollars ? I am afraid not. Artist and singer also have the passion but if the pay is low, sooner or later the passion will die as they need to earn a living.
Prabhu Says:
June 10th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Frens,
This post is really impressive and informative. Actually i used to work as system administrator in my country and now in singapore as IT help desk personnel. If somehow i managed to get myself system administrator post looking after servers like ASP,Apache, Windows 2003, IIS,FTP, Astesrisk, LAN/WAN troubleshooting. How much will i be paid for these kind of job ? Currently in my post i m getting paid very less but still i have to satisfy myself…. I hope you guys will help me to correct direction….
Nicholas Says:
June 10th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
In Singapore, if you are a graduate and can speak good english, regardless of nationality, forget about working if your employer pays you less than S$2.4K a month. To me, that is the very minimum. But if you ask me what is the average nowadays, it’s probably in the range of 2.8K to 3.6K. I think if foreign immigrants start to demand higher pay from employers instead of agreeing to any ridiculous pay offered by the employers, they will be more welcomed by the locals.
engineer Says:
June 11th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
I have been working for 4 years as a software engineer, earning 55k p.a., confirmed considered low band of earners.
IMO, It is true that engineers are underpaid and not highly regarded in singapore compared to US.
We also had to put in the long hours, suffer stress etc. It is only those top few engineers that are highly paid.
Now I am considering 2 OPTIONS:
1. bear with it for another few years to head into project management
(now that i’m a team leader)
2.take up financial engineering to head into finance industry.
I am sure I am not the only one in this situation. Would greatly appreciate if anyone can offer advice/comments?
For option 2: If I cannot afford a financial engineering degree, what other options to be in the quant area?
Al C Says:
June 11th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Hi engineer,
For option 1, I am not sure if PM pays well in Sg. I am sure it is overseas, at least in Australia.
For option 2, if you only have an bachelor’s degree you will need at least a MFE, or you can go do a PhD in a numerate discipline. It means you will have to spend $$. One thing though: Given the current problems that are caused by hard-to-account for losses in exotic derivatives, I am not sure if quant or FE will be as hot as it is in the future. A significant amount of hedge funds have collapsed, and hedge funds is one area where a lot of quants go to. Also, quant is most employable in US and UK, however, they are the suffering lot right now. e.g. Lehman just lost 2.8 billion, so I don’t think they are gonna hire anytime soon although they are one of the few banks that likes quants.
But if you are really interested in FE then go for it.
Hope that helps.
Howcome Says:
June 11th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
engineer, here’s a 3rd option: strive to improve yourself as much as you can in your field (what is it–.NET? Java?). Educate yourself on financial matters. Find out more about derivatives, equities, fixed income, commodities, etc. Then apply for IT position in investment banks.
There are many in Singapore, take your pick. Lehman Brothers, Credit Suisse, Barclays Capital, Merrill Lynch–it’s all good. Position yourself to get closer and closer to the front office. If you have the ability and drive to get there, 70, 90, or even 100k is not that far ahead, especially with the bonus (although this year the bonus won’t be as good…).
The “technical to PM” route is soooooo local companies, and I think it’s rather retarded. The brains and thought patterns of a good software engineer is different from those of a good PM. Why do they keep making decision to lose a good software engineer and replace him with a lousy newbie PM?
engineer Says:
June 11th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Thanks AI C & HowCome for the comments.
Howcome, can I ask if the prospects of PM in sg is poor?
From IT position in banks to front office , is it possible ? What kind of possible front-office positions?
From my limited knowledge, IT is a supporting role in banks. For IT, they have the technical team (many FT experts), the business analyst (bridge between users & technical team). Of course the infrastructure IT areas as well.
Many thanks for the commments.
Al C Says:
June 11th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
hi engineer,
1st of all, PM in Singapore is just like another general manager. Pay sucks and you work long hours. If you do a check on Aussie job search engines, PM (esp those in Civil Engineering) can expect about AUD 200k. After tax it comes down to about AUD130k which is still not bad. You may still work long hours but at least you are rewarded.
This is also for Howcome: you can move from IT to front office, however, just like ants attracted to honey, there are so many ants while with only a few pots of honey. That is, it is EXTREMELY difficult to get to front office unless you are really talented, especially in the banks. Honestly, a back to middle office quant’s salary aint too bad liao. If you really want more info on what FE or Quant Analytics is about, try http://www.markjoshi.com and read his advice. Mind you it is not for the faint hearted. Most of the quants are PhDs in pure maths and physics and the questions they ask you at interviews will entertain the brightest of minds. Also read E Derman’s blog at http://www.ederman.com. You better know who he is, cos if don’t you ain’t in the game.
Al C Says:
June 11th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Engineer, that said, I think its best if you join a boutique hedge fund. Like Citadel or DE Shaw, then again people in there are Maths Olympiad champs….
Al C Says:
June 11th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Engineer: Sorry for my spurtsof thoughts, but actually I think you will be more suited for a Quant DEVELOPER rather than analyst. They are different. Read it in Mark Joshi’s advice. A developer doesn’t require so much math but will need the software technical know how. The industry is really go berserk whereby like a millisecond of trading time counts a millions….
engineer Says:
June 12th, 2008 at 2:02 am
Al C appreciate your comments. For a newb like me, I appreciate any kind of sharing.
It’s kindof crossroad for me right now cos I’m deciding on the next career move, I’m pretty sure there are engineers out there in the same predicament.
something that I can share is that I heard from people in the finance industry is that the lifecycle is pretty short. E.g. front office people, get replaced by new and young blood.
More volatile as there are higher chances of retrenchment during bad economy (LIFO – last in first out).
IMO, I think if the $$ is really good, the risk is justifiable.
Al C Thanks again for sharing your experience.
Cheers
Champ Says:
June 12th, 2008 at 9:24 am
There aren’t many Maths Olympiad champs. In fact Singapore has never produced a gold medal winner, yet. So take heart. If you’ve got gold distinctions in 3 S papers including double maths and breezed through college math, you’d be fine.
Champ Says:
June 12th, 2008 at 9:24 am
Sorry, I meant “distinctions”, not “gold distinctions”.
Howcome Says:
June 12th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
engineer: I mean IT in front office. Again even in front office there are many kinds. There are people who literally sit shoulder to shoulder with traders. There are people who work on trading applications that are used by traders and the bank’s clients. I’m presenting that 3rd option to you because at 5.5k/month, I feel that you have a lot of room to go up.
Al C: sure, I’m just presenting an option to him/her. Just because somebody is a developer doesn’t mean s/he’s math-inclined. At the front office IT you don’t need to be so math-savvy–but you’d better be able to fix things yesterday with traders screaming at you. Then again there’s that quant developer, like you said.
Howcome Says:
June 12th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Oh, engineer, to answer your question–depends. PM in IBs is definitely not a poor prospect. Just ask any IT dude from Barclays Capital GSDC (I’m not there BTW). Good PMs there are Unit Manager candidate–your road to Directorship liao.
But don’t hope too much on local Singapore SMEs lah…
MakeTheBest Says:
June 18th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
just do your best, whether you are pm, engineer, consultant, IT sales.
some sectors pay more than the other…however, if you are really good at your trade. it is possible to get a 6 digit annual income by 30….
need to work in a co that really appreciates your work…
Nicholas Says:
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:46 pm
i agree with MakeTheBest. I may not be in some of the seemingly lucrative industry like investment banking. But I’m 27 this year and I m not far away from the 6 figure annual income. So it’s most important to do our best in whatever that we are doing. Cheers.
windwaver Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 10:36 pm
Well, engineers start off higher but ends up MUCH lower down the road
. I used to be happy when my friends in non engine field started out our careers.
10yrs down the road & I don’t even bother to ask about their pay checks already. After 10yrs, I finally understand being smart in school is stupid. Thanks to the lecturer that told me to switch back to science cos my results were good for science.
Reflections : Blog Archive : « SMU Fresh Grads Make $4k to $10k Civil Service Bonus mid-2008 » Engineering and Technology Careers are Not Valued - Singapore is “High Cost Low Tech” Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 2:40 am
[...] Taken from: http://www.salary.sg/2008/engineering-and-technology-careers-are-not-valued-singapore-is-high-cost-l... [...]
vhdl Says:
July 9th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Very interesting discussion. I have worked for 10 years as an engineer and have been top of band performer, but yet to cross 6 figure yearly. And I am one of the higher paid ones. It is not as easy to earn money as an engineer, but that is not the main point. Most people who are still engineers after 10 years are really contented people. Else they would not have stayed on.
The main problem engineers face in Singapore is a catch-22 situation. Because we do not value engineers, there are few really good engineers, so there are few high value jobs done here. Look at what big companies do in Singapore. Then you understand you can’t get many good engineers trained. With only low value jobs, we can use cheap overseas engineer with less experience and are cheap. Using an experienced engineer is a waste of money only some sectors can afford.
The govt attempts to keep some engineering activities in Singapore despite the outflow of manufacturing activities. It provides a livelihood (not a fortune generator) for engineers so again you are clear that we can’t really be in it for money.
The main problem is livelihood for engineers is not assured despite the lower pay. Singapore abandons industry every 10-20 years. Some past examples are computer and peripherals, HiFi, pcb, home appliances. General electronics is on the way out. Semicon is non-competitive but simply subsidied by the govt to provide jobs. The bleed is low so it should last at least 5 years more. Health science is new so it will probably be out in 10-20 years. Without perseverance, you cannot excel. So Singapore will NEVER excel in engineering and the govt recognize this. Yet they need to maintain it as a major slice of GDP.
Engineers that stay too long in any industry will face irrelvance. Engineers cannot switch fields that easily. No manager will hire a 20-year experience power/ectronics/semicon engineer to be in working in genes.
It is easier for people working in finance/banking, doctors, lawyers, services, management (project or otherwise). But the important thing for someone who wants to stay as an engineer is to remain relevant and you need to make a major field jump every some years to make sure you have a livehood.
bigct Says:
July 12th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Hi all, just like to find out what is the reasonable starting pay for a fresh Masters graduate from Mechanical Engineering.
Thanks
biz undergrad Says:
July 16th, 2008 at 2:52 am
Dear Singaporeans,
All of us should realise that Singapore owns a very strong financial sector.Singapore also act as a financial hub for regional countries.It took two years for me to believe that this true fact really affect us.
I started working as an associate engineer in electronics industry after getting my rigorous engineering diploma.What i get in return is a retrenchment exercise by the former electronics company and i thought it was just my misfortune and continue my journey taking the same job in a giant electronics company.
What i get in return is another retrenchment exercise as this the telecmmunication giant iam working now is ceasing business here.
Worse still engineering companies nowadays either hire foreign Chinese engineers and pay them big bucks(dun know why)or pack up and move all their operations to China.
I apply for business programme at uniSIM and thank god im accepted and lookig forward to a career change(anyway im 26 still got hope).
At least I know i dont have to compete with foreign Chinese when i jump into financial sector as speaking English is their main weakness.(unless singapore decide to turn itself as a mini CHina which nowadays i think its gonna happen soon)
engineer26 Says:
July 21st, 2008 at 2:30 pm
My experience is that engineering is no doubt having less stress as compared to investment banker lets say. Also, it might be true that after 15- 20 yrs an engineer will start to enjoy the high salary. compartively, if you work for the financial world, more stress more money, but if you invest those money early wisely, there is a gd chance you will be sipping lime juice at Hawaii. Thus, even when u get retrenched (in banking) say after 3-5 yrs of good pay, you are well ahead in your bank account, i say why not. Another consideration, engineering jobs are everywhere, so no worries when u decide to quit from financial world.
Engineer33 Says:
July 22nd, 2008 at 1:37 am
I graduated with a First Class honors in engineering and worked as an engineer in manufacturing for the past 5 years. My annual package inclusive all bonuses is not even 50k. My sister is a banker with similar number of years of experience; make 2 to 3 times more than what I make.
An engineer average starting salary is about $2.7 and gets about 3 to 5% increment each year if lucky. Promotion from engineer to senior engineer on average takes about 4 to 5 years and the pay jump is about 5 to 10%. I have witnessed several rounds of retrenchment and production moved out of Singapore in my last two companies and not to mention the frequent pay and bonus freeze. Does this job sound attractive to you?
I have seen very few good engineers in both my current and previous companies. Most of them just follow what those guys in HQ say and over time, we just became followers. We don’t really use much of our brains anymore. I’ve seen friends with good engineering degree that don’t end up being engineer because they associated the job to low pay and poor career advancement.
Engineers certainly play a very important role in our day to day life. But somehow in Singapore, engineers are often unappreciated and not well compensated.
Agreed Says:
July 22nd, 2008 at 11:38 am
My friend graduated with second upper honours in engineering whereas i just achieved an honours degree, in engineering as well. I had always been asking my friends if engineering is what they want to really stick to in life, and was kinda shocked by their blank stares. Nobody really gave a thought to that – engineering was just ‘tan chiat’ and nothing else. It was a guaranteed way to earn a decent salary and my friend was one of them – upgrading himself always and when we both started out, he was earning around 3K while my pay was 2.5K. In those days, 500 was enough to give you a huge ego boost.
However, I knew engineering was a dead end, so I immersed myself into sales, and let’s not even talk about financial industry, just the sales aspect of any sector. Fast forward 3 years, my friend is getting a proud 4K senior engineer pay, and as for me, due to the rarity of sales-focused engineers, is lucky to get a 300K annual package with stock options.
Bottom line is, engineers are plenty, but just like the bankers, companies reward mostly the ones who bring in the cash, so it might not be too late to change your inclination. My 2 cents advice from my personal experience. thanks
Rod Says:
July 22nd, 2008 at 11:18 pm
Chanced upon this link and find some very interesting comments here. My personal experience as an engineer is, manufacturing engineers salary is pretty standard. No such thing as front office or back office whereby people from certain department getting paid many times more than those from another department. Engineers starting pay typically range from $2,500 to $3,000. After around 5 years, if you are lucky can get between 4 to 4.5k but this will usually mean that you will have to job hop at least once or twice because yearly increment is typically 0% to 5%. Chances of getting bonus that exceeds 3 months is definitely much much lower than getting bonus that is less than a month. To get a 6 figure annual compensation you must be one of the super lucky few and get yourself a director title after maybe 15 years.
Your first home will probably be a 4 or 5 room flat and your first car which you can finally afford after a few years will probably be a Toyota Vios, Nissan Sunny or Mitsubishi lancer. After 10 years or so, you might probably be able to afford a Toyota camry and live in a Heartland Condominiums.
During the first few years, you will see many of your ex-classmates or colleagues who work as engineer starting to move into other industries. Those who stayed on are those that either cannot move out to other industries, those who lives in their own world or those that really have interests in their job. Many of your techie friends or colleagues will whine and whine about their so called low pay. But after awhile, this will automatically stops because they learnt to accept the fact that they are engineers and not lawyers, bankers or doctors. You can also forget about having team mates that graduated from top universities like Cambridge, MIT or Stanford because I have not met a single one after so many years.
Come to think of it, it is not too bad. Don’t worry, be happy.
Pointless Says:
July 23rd, 2008 at 1:03 am
Annual compensation inclusive of all bonuses for a rookie investment banker with a top tier bank in singapore could possibly be six figure. An engineer can never be paid so much unless you start your own company.
It is pointless to compare the average with those from the cream of the crop simply because most of us are just not in that league. Have you heard of any engineers that get paid more than a million dollar a year? More likely you have heard of top lawyers, bankers, surgeons or politician getting that kind of compensation.
cometoOz Says:
July 23rd, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Grad engineer(mining/Oil/gas) in Oz is getting 70K plus.. doing nothing but surfing web in the office..
Ex-Engineer now Makes 300k doing Sales | Salary.sg - Your Salary in Singapore Says:
July 28th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
[...] we now convinced that Singapore is high cost low tech, engineering is a dead end career and all engineers should get out of [...]
IT engineer Says:
July 29th, 2008 at 12:05 am
Ex-Engineer,
Advise on how you proceed with a change in career?
Ex-engineer Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 6:11 am
If you want to have a stab at the financial industry, you need to arm yourself with some financial credentials to make yourself look credible. For me, I had a strong interest in finance, did an MBA and now doing a CFA. Had a choice between finance or management roles in MNCs, chose finance and turned out to be a much better decision. But everybody’s path is different and you got to choose one that suits you.. However, I did only have 2 years of engineering experience before I changed my career. I would imagine it gets harder and harder to switch your career if you have more years of irrelevant experience. I believe in constant upgrading and hate to be in a comfort zone, coz once you’re in a comfort zone .. your career life pretty much ends there and then.. Good luck!
fresh grads Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 4:52 pm
a point of view from a fresh grad. fresh graduated engineers are actually paid rather well in sg compared to most other jobs. if u graduated from nus/ntu u’ll probably start between 2.5k to 3.5k a month. its nothing compared to front office positions in banks, but remember that these positions dun all go to business grads. if u are not a dean’s lister or a first class, u’ll can forget about being hired and u’ll probably start at around 3k at some other position as well.
glamourous banking jobs are a lure to all fresh grads. even top students from engineering go into banking. but don’t expect these jobs to be comfy. they are often high stress with long hours. remuneration is nearly always comensurate with (1) the quality of the degree u have; (2) the hours put in on the job and (3) the experience u have.
other countries may pay their engineers better. but if ur thinking of going overseas then ur not going to go far armed with just a local degree. again, the better paying jobs go to grads from harvard, yale, stanford, cambridge and oxford.
IT Engineer Says:
July 31st, 2008 at 11:13 pm
You doing sales for financial products?
low cost-low tech Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 9:12 am
singapore engr is low cost, low tech…
very stressed engr Says:
August 1st, 2008 at 9:05 pm
dont think the grads from harvard, yale, stanford, cambridge and oxford go into the better paying jobs in engineering sectors in their countries.
Engineer or Finance Says:
August 2nd, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Well engineer is definitely a low paying job. This is because the amount of effort and time, you chip in will never be tally. Nevertheless, the task can be tedious and nerve wrecking. That is why most of the engineer is bald! Not just that, engineer always face a lot of time and pressure to deliver a product to the client. Things will certainly get worse when there is a budget and time constraint to fulfill. Solving problem is also another task, which will be encountered from day to day. Problem can be complex and sometime can get very stressful if you dont have the skill to solve the problem. Last you also must be good in application for science and technology able to learn new things quick and fast under time pressure. I would say overall, Engineer is underpaid. ENGINEER = Professional Labour.
Jason Says:
August 2nd, 2008 at 7:19 pm
7K a month
alot or less?
Jimmy Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 11:50 am
>
7K is alot but how many years of experience after graduation from university you got??
What type of engineer are you, what industry?
Is 7K your basic pay? or does that included your allowance + OT?
I can tell you that my old bird engineer in my company (in aerospace industry with 16 years exp, a university graduate), now only earn about 6.1K only…
Is this good or bad??
Engineer or Finance Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 12:43 pm
to JImmy,
6.1k ? After 16 years experience? Is a normal pay mate. Work to eat, eat to die. I will call it a slavery pay.
Engineer or Finance Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Singapore Engineer = Low cost + low tech + dedicated slavery worker
atropois Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Hi, is enginnering really that bad in Singapore?
im in NS now and im considering to take up meachanical engineering in NTU. Do you think its a good idea as i studied meachnical engineering in poly and managed to get diploma with merit.
Al Says:
August 3rd, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Hi atropois,
Depends on what you mean by bad. If you think 5k salary is good enough for you, then I don’t think its bad. But if you want the 5 fig. salary per month then I think it will be hard to do it in Singapore as an engineer (unless you become a manager of a > medium size tech firm).
That said, this is Singapore, its a city and not really a country. Thus the chances for technical development are really limited as the city has kinda reached its saturation limit. Do engineering as a first degree if you are keen on it and will be good for going into banks and management. If you want to be practical you don;t need a degree just do a sales and marketing job. There’s pros and cons.
It;s hard to have a conviction in Singapore …..
Engineer or Finance Says:
August 4th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
to atropois,
First Engineer is about getting recognition about the work you have done and take pride on your design or the technology that you have invented. But remember is not a good pay job, when you consider the hours that you have devoted to solve the problem is more like slavery. In fact, you might ended up working more than a blue collar worker. Also remember most of the time engineer is not paid for over time. Is more on your passion for the job. If you love money more than your job that say good bye to engineering for now.
Ex-Engineer Says:
August 4th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
I graduated from engineering NUS. From a cost-benefit analysis standpoint, graduating with an engineering degree is not worth it. Just look at the number of hours required to get that degree compared with a business graduate or law graduate, and yet when we go out to work, finance and law related employees get a better salary. When i first started work with a manufacturing company, i was shocked that technicians with diplomas are earnimg more than me cos of Overtime, but we as executives have to stay back with no OT pay. From a per hour salary engineers a really underpaid. So frankly, unless you love fixing things or love to troubleshoot problems,use some common sense and decide what is best for you. For those midway in their course of studying engineering, pls get that 1st class honors to get into banks. For those with 2nd upper (like me) and below, pls think of a business idea and start a business with that logical mind of ours or maybe polish up your sales and human relations.
Engineer or Finance Says:
August 6th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
to ex engineer.
I totally agree with you. I have been working as an engineer for 3 years. Now i am thinking of calling a quit.
fresher Says:
August 6th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Wow…very intresting discussion…
I’m basically a fresher who has got an opportunity to work as a s/w engg in singapore..
The pay they are offering is abt 2.8k S$ which i thought was decent. If you compare that with salaries they give for a fresher her in india, the singapore offer wins hands down. Although i realise the cost of living in singapore is significantly higher when compared to other countries it still is an “INTERNATIONAL” experience which not many freshers here get.
An international offer is seriously a very “BIG” deal here(I’m guessing in other places too)..
Maybe thats one of the reasons singapore still has engineers who accept offers for a lot less pay.
If you intend on saving some money it accounts for a lot of local currency when you take it back home .
Also if the guy wants to do an MBA or something later,the experience should help right?
IT Engineer Says:
August 6th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
I work as a software engineer.
Salesman bring in the deal, engineers got to fulfill whatever promises made by the salesman within the given time and budget.
End of the day, engineers are a bunch of overwork underpaid people
fresher Says:
August 6th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
Hmmm..i guess its not the best place to be in for the long term..at least for a s/w engineer.
what about the IT departments in large banks?..are they no better?..how tough is it to get into one of those?..
Howcome Says:
August 10th, 2008 at 7:58 am
Don’t lose your focus. If I were you, I’d use the offer you got as your entry to Singapore. Once you’ve got a PR here, it’ll be a lot easier to look around. Use this as your first step in.
fresher Says:
August 11th, 2008 at 1:39 am
Ok…Thanks a lot for the advice.
jeepo Says:
August 11th, 2008 at 11:51 am
very interesting comments and observations..thought i would add my 2 cents as i did an engineering degree as well.
i did engineering as it was probably subconsciously ingrained in me since young that i should be an engineer. Prob that i do better in maths and science subjects in school led me thinking that as well even though i had more fun in humanities subjects. So i did electrical engineering in uni but took up a first job in IT. it’s been 7 years since. my starting pay was just over $2K. I earn about $200K annually in total doing IT sales. I am sure I will definitely not be earning that amount if I were to take up an engineering job. My annual is significantly less than many folks in the finance industry but i am currently happy at what i am doing. Of course, i dream about the bungalows and the maseratis but i am contented for the time being.
In hindsight, (as I went through my academic career without much thought), i would have taken up Business studies in uni and focussed on reaching for a MBA or a CFA after graduation. The reason for doing this is that I could enter the financial industry. From a salary perspective, it would have been much more lucrative.
some advice for folks. 2 key criteria for success from academic perspective – Language and Maths. With a strong command of the language, you can be effective in communications i.e. hear and be heard. Maths is a no-brainer. What you actually study in uni will not have that much a bearing on our career anyway as I always believe the course work in Uni just kinda “learning how to learn”. An inquisitive mind, a courageous heart and pure, unadulterated hard work goes a long way in career success as well. So if I were to go through uni again, I would choose something I would enjoy and easily excel in and spend the rest of uni time building up strong networks and basically enjoying that part of life. All this before the big plunge into working life.
IT Engineer Says:
August 11th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
jeepo,
What’s the job scope of IT Sales?
jeepo Says:
August 11th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
IT Engineer,
selling product and services of IT vendors like IBM, HP, etc. Sales roles vary from account managers, territory managers, prodct managers, sales managers, business development managers etc. basically having a quota to fulfil by either direct selling or indirect selling via channel partners. discussing the job scope is another 2-3hrs of coffee talk. drop me your email and we can continue the conversation from there if required.
IT Engineer Says:
August 11th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
jeepo,
I am a software engineer with 1 yr experience. Thanks for sharing the job scope of IT Sales.
Anyway IT Sales do sound stressful if you need to hit a given quota every month.
Business degree Says:
August 14th, 2008 at 12:30 am
very interesting and ALIVE discussion here.
I’m interested to earn more in my new job as sales engineer. Thinking of taking up part-time sales related or business degree so that few yrs down the road can have better prospect or easier to find another better paid job. Can someone recommend any degree & which Uni ? Currently in late 20s.
Thank you
jeepo Says:
August 14th, 2008 at 10:51 am
i think it’s great that you are proactive in furthering your career and capabilities. if you are thinking of a sales career, what you can do to jumpstart is probably gain more financial knowledge – understand basic finance, read annual reports, balance sheets, net present value etc. all these can actually help you put together a stronger proposal where you focus on return on investments, total cost of ownership etc rather than just product features.
pretty much, it depends on where you are right now and where you want to be. if you have a basic degree, you can work towards a advanced degree – be it a Masters, CFA or MBA. this can help to position yourself for more managerial roles. talk to more people in your target career industry to have more insights. basically, talk to more people across diff industries as well. you will find that you understand a lot more from diff perspectives and in the process you are also networking.
basically, if you are thinking through your actions, you should be fine. As i said before, nothing beats hard (sometimes smart) work, right attitude and EQ, except maybe a ridiculously rich uncle who names you as a beneficiary…
Business degree Says:
August 14th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
Thanks jeepo.
Totally agreed with you that instead of focusing on product features (which can easily replace by others), Focus on the return of investment and total cost of investment so that can have a stronger proposal.
I have a basic degree in mechanical engineering but I considering a business or finance degree as my foundation is not strong but yet I want to find courses that strongly use “Apply as you learn” teaching method. Currently my plan is to join the new company and learn the trade while try to figure out (talk to people in my target career industry as you have mentioned, discover my strong points and potential, find out available options). Hopefully after a yr, I can commmit to a course e.g.CFA
Andrew H Says:
August 17th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
It is a no-brainer to choose a banking & finance carrer, rather than Engineering career -
(1) You spend only a quarter of the studying hours to secure that Finance degree, compared to a Engineering degree
(2) You start with higher pay and you get more money in shorter time, rather than slogging away in a factory with long hours
(3) You get to dress in nice suits and ties and work in swanky high rise office buildings in downtown Raffles place, compared to being shabbily dressed and getting holed up in a corner of Tuas or Jurong all your working life.
(4) Most importantly, you work alongside good -looking hot office babes as a banker , compared to being surrounded by male foreign technician all day long!!!
Collin Says:
August 18th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Just sharing my story.
Was in NTU Computer Engineering last year. Decided to drop after the 1st semester and enrolled into UOL Banking & Finance.
Currently still in my 1st year of undergraduate. I’m glad that I made the choice as my interest in IT dropped tremendously during 2 years NS and was really demoralized by the pace of technology. On the other hand, my interest in business/finance picked up ever since I was introduced to the book Rich Dad Poor Dad by RK. Never look back, I have since read a dozen more stocks/finance related books, I have never been more assured of my career direction than ever.
Current aim is to graduate with 1st class and pass CFA Level 1 (Self-Study).
mac Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 12:02 am
hi collin, glad that you made that switch to pursue your dream job. true i’ve many friends who are not doing what they are trained for. better to sacrifice one year for a more relevant course and career henceforth.
in fact, i wouldn’t say you’ve wasted 1 yr of your time cos learning a new skill or knowledge is always handy, you can for example return to IT field not as programmer (and compete with armies of programmer from lower cost countries) but in biz development or govt regulatory fn.
enjoy your student life…the road to success is long but rewarding…
cheers,
mac, nus mba candidate
jasper Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Hi guys, engineering education is not a waste at all, even that your eventual career path is to be a banker.
I did an engineering degree, and now working as derivatives trading. A handful of my classmates have gone to become pte banker, structurer, risk manager, quant,… thus you can still work in bank with engineering undergrad degree.
Actually thinking back, I will still do engineering as my undergrad degree given its quantitative and analytical training.
Poly 'm ststudent Says:
August 22nd, 2008 at 1:38 pm
I’m still studying engineering in poly, but not doing too well (about average) due to a lack of interest in the field. Assuming money is my main priority and not minding the long working/studying hours, what should my next step be?
Work as a engineer WHILE studying financial stuff? Try to get into a banking course and then into university? Or … ?
Poly student Says:
August 22nd, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Also note that I’m in Engineering Informatics and have modules in Business Information sysems, Project management, etc… would that help towards getting a banking degree?
Collin Says:
August 22nd, 2008 at 5:23 pm
Hi Poly Student,
Of course if possible, get a business degree from the local university. If not, you might want to try DL degrees.
But the 1st thing you should address now is to spend some time sorting out what you foresee your career path to be like. And then finding solutions or ways to help you attain that goal. Begin with the end in mind.
Omar Says:
August 24th, 2008 at 3:06 am
hi guys, i found this page while i was search for the salary chrats in sg. any way i’m iraqi studying in malaysia and i’m planning to come over to work next year in sg. i’m doing engineering so how is the salary of fresh grad. and is it ok to find a job bcoz i’m foreinger, which one is butter engineering or banking and what’s the requirement to work in these high paid banks
regards
Omar
Low-paid Says:
August 26th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
rats, I think I’m so low paid. Am 34 this year at only 5.5k a mth
Engineering and Technology Careers are Not Valued - Singapore is “High Cost Low Tech” | Salary.sg - Your Salary in Singapore Says:
August 27th, 2008 at 1:59 am
zhenyi says: We all know that techies are undervalu……
We all know that techies are undervalued in sunny Singapore. You’re a techie, you make 5k and be happy. Stay happy. Else get out and go to countries like USA, Japan, or even China and Taiwan where tech talent are much more highly valued than over……
low cost-low tech Says:
August 27th, 2008 at 8:31 am
today’s newspaper reports sg economy’s financials do not bode well, & engineers are in line for the next wave of retrenchments ?? sing dollar is going up, so our “costs” are going up ????
Business Degree Says:
August 27th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Mr. Low-paid : Paid 5.5k at 34 considered low paid ? Maybe you like to elaborate….how much time and sacrifice you made at work….At times, it also depend how much you spend — You earn 10k but have 8k expenditure also make you feel poor.
Zhenyi : Go overseas may not be happy. Another very important factor is you work under a capable superior who also take care of his men. I looking for a role model boss or superior who will make me work smart & hard to reach his level of success (money & Lifestyle)
CHeers
low cost-low tech Says:
August 27th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
hi business degree
how much do sales engineer get these days ??
5.5k gross monthly for slavery dedicated engineer is no good.
Low-paid Says:
August 27th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Hi Business Degree,
I’m not an engineer. I’m a business analyst.
I wonder how much an engineer of my age makes.
5.5k in my opinion is peanuts.
Very disheartening.
Engineer Says:
August 28th, 2008 at 2:54 am
If I leave engineering field for banking and finance, do I have to take up relevant degree? Because I do not have the relevant knowledge.. i do take up a couple of relevant subject during my uni life.. Pls advise.
Collin Says:
August 28th, 2008 at 9:46 am
Engineer,
It very much depends on which area of Banking & Finane you want to work in. Its a wide area.
You can bring your engineering degree to work as Engineer but in the Banking & Finance field. You will be able to pick up a lot of Finance knowledge but of course you are still pretty much in the backroom.
Anyway, its still down to the bottonline where you have to decide which area you want to work in and not just blindly go into Banking & Finance. You might get back-fire without knowing your path clearly.
Howcome Says:
August 29th, 2008 at 10:47 am
@Low-paid: how many years of experience do you have?
I want to ask you 5 questions: Have you ever tried finding out the market rate? Have you ever gone for interviews with other companies to get a feel? Have you ever networked using LinkedIn to get yourself more opportunities? Have you ever contact your ex-colleagues or ex-bosses who are in other companies to see if there are more opportunities? Are you constantly improving yourself in your domain, with the long term objective of establishing yourself as an expert in that domain?
Until you have done all those, you can’t complain that you’re low-paid. If you’ve done all that and you still get that much, then yes, I agree, you are low-paid.
angpai Says:
August 29th, 2008 at 11:42 am
Hi Low pay, are u in banking? 5.5K for a BA? Just want to assess the market rate.
Low-paid Says:
August 29th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Howcome:
I’ve done pretty much those except doubting the effectiveness of linkedin. It’s more of a social career networking site to showcase your career highlights.
angpai:
I’m not in banking. BA is a pretty broad role and it differs from places to places.
Howcome Says:
August 29th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
So what is the market rate for BA in your domain? If everybody with experience similar to you is paid 5.5k, then you’re not low paid, no?
angpai Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 8:28 am
Hi LowPay, the value of BA is actually project manager cum system analyst with domain knowledge. If your industry is of low margin one such as retail, then 5.5K quite good already.
HR manager Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
companies pay their staffers the same compensation, regardless of degree/post, based on seniority, & to maintain equity within the same company. so a 10 year BA will be paid the same as 10 year engineer.
None of this year’s President’s Scholars doing Engineering | Salary.sg - Your Salary in Singapore Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
[...] as we were debating whether engineering is a dead-end career in Singapore, I noticed a common trait among the 2008 batch of President’s Scholarship [...]
None of this year’s President’s Scholars doing Engineering | Salary.sg - Your Salary in Singapore Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
[...] as we were debating whether engineering is a dead-end career in Singapore, I noticed a common trait among the 2008 batch of President’s Scholarship [...]
Howcome Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
HR manager, I doubt so. You mean if you have programmers with 20 years of experience you’ll pay him the same as your (relatively young) CEO, who has 20 years of managing experience?
Low-paid Says:
September 1st, 2008 at 10:01 am
I’m not in retail. I’m in the professional services industry. So which is why I think I’m shortchanged. Then again, I don’t have additional certifications apart from my Computing degree.
Am looking to jump ship!
eng_in_quandary Says:
September 4th, 2008 at 3:41 am
A fantastic Blog with some great inputs! As a non-singaporean engineer, the details’ve come as a surprise to me. Are the salary levels for engineers more or less at par across different sectors, say software/ chemical/ manufacturing? Generally, software tends to be towards the higher side in quite a few countries. Does this hold in Singapore? Also, what would be a decent monthly sal for an expat with 7 yrs of very good R&D software experience? S$ 7K??
angpai Says:
September 5th, 2008 at 12:05 am
Hi eng_in_quandary, r u sure u want to do R&D in Singapore? U notice the title of this thread?
Hi Low-paid, 5.5K not that bad already if your company is a stable, wont close type. Is very much depends on how u save and not how much u earn.
5m10y Says:
September 5th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Eh, of course it very much depends on how much you earn also. 70% of 5.5k and 70% of 20k is very different leh
I’ve always been good at saving, since I started working I was able to save about 50% of my salary. Now that my salary has gone higher, I can save around 70%.
How much you earn matters VERY MUCH.
Sure, there are people who earn 100k/month and spend 100k/month and as such are poorer than us who save 10% of our (much lower) salary. But these people are irrelevant to our purpose of building wealth, except as lessons (don’t do it like they do), and as useless consolations (see, earn so much also cannot save, I’m better, har har har…)
There’s a limit to how much you can save per month without making yourself too miserable. Past that, the only way to improve is by improving how much you earn.
Priyojit Khersa Says:
September 8th, 2008 at 12:37 am
Quite a good informative discussions in the forum, thanks.Hi, myself Priyojit from India. I am looking for an opportunity to work in Singapore.Presently I am workng with TCE Consulting Engineers in India (a TATA enterprise) as a Planning Engineer & co-ordinator I have 3 yrs & 9 months experiance in building construction since I completed my academics-Bachelor in Architecture & Post Graduation in Construction Management .I have got hands on experiance in planning with MS Project & Primavera. I am exposed to handling special construction projects like Hospitals & Automobile plants. Can any body guide me in this regard. What should be my expectations. My email ID is priyojit.khersa@gmail.com
Low-paid Says:
September 8th, 2008 at 10:32 am
At the end of the day, if one is not satisfied, no matter how high his/her salary is, he/she will not be happy.
I guess I will try to learn to be contented with my meagre pay
low cost-low tech Says:
September 8th, 2008 at 10:59 am
hi angpai
how much should engineer at 34 years be paid ??
Just want to assess the market rate.
5m10y Says:
September 9th, 2008 at 6:29 am
Depends what kind of engineer. IT Engineer? Normal rate is around 6-8k.
low-paid Says:
September 9th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Shldn’t it be an engineer with x number of years of experience should be paid how much as opposed to how old right?
Dude Says:
September 9th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
If you are 34, I reckoned 8-10 years?
5m10y Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 12:03 am
Yeap, Dude is right–that was my assumption.
Jefefe Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Remember year 2003~2004? when only 77 jobs offered per-month island wide..(base on Jobsdb for Mechanical Engineer)
my batch of friends graduated from NTU Mechanical Engineering will be happy for a 2.2k starting pay.
about 4 yrs latter,Today, imagine your annual increment is about 7%,and some promotion at 10% increment.
You will only get about 3.3k NOW.
I switched to Software field 2 yrs ago, just slightly peanutly better..
low cost-low tech Says:
September 11th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
engineers are going to be retrenched, what good is there remembering ??
low-paid Says:
September 12th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Pay at the end of the day is subjective.
Be happy and live a fulfilling life.
I’m not gonna be bothered about my low pay anymore.
high-paid Says:
September 12th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
U bloody fool, people are earning $2000 and they don’t complain… Some are erning less.
Jefefe Says:
September 12th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
my comment just bring out a point where some of the fresh grad said forget about working when pay lesser than 2.4k…
When u cannot find job even first class or dean list also no use..
You try throwing a stone on roadside and an engineer will get hit..
low-paid Says:
September 12th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
To high-paid : No need to get offensive here. You wanna scold, try looking at the mirror and you can start.
high-paid Says:
September 12th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
To low paid : Why do I have to look into the mirror and start? My pay is much lower than yours and I don’t complain. It pains me to see pathetic people like you getting a reasonable salary and still pity yourself..
5m10y Says:
September 12th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Rather than being so angry at somebody who’s “getting a reasonable salary and still pity himself”, why not explore avenues that will get you a higher pay?
And if you’re genuinely happy about your “low pay” (according to yourself), then why need to be so angry?
low-paid Says:
September 14th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
high-paid : My point to you this, this is a professional forum. No need for strong words. Period.
high-paid Says:
September 16th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
to 5m10y; Thanks for the advice, but I didn’t mention that i was happy with my pay, i just don’t complain. Btw, I’ll explore other avenues..
to low-paid; Sorry for the strong words, wish u all the best in your career.
Serene Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Any recommendation for the switch from Engineering to Bank Sector?
How to go about it?
Job agency?
jefefe Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Hi Serene,
You sure still want to switch to banking sector, looking at the market now thing finance and banking sector is bottom out liao, waiting for the wave to hit singapore only
Serene Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
ya I thought about that too.
but u think about it, when market is good, you don’t yearn on any better things more than those who had stayed on.
5m10y Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
What kind of Engineering? Software engineering? Should be relatively easy to go to banks, although now you have to compete with about 100 Lehman people
jigs Says:
September 26th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
I chanced to visit this site..I am a mechanical engineer from India, switched to oil and gas software field, worked in SG for 3 years and when I left Sg, was paid 6.5K/month(in 2005). Now in middle east, getting paid 10.4K USD/month.tax free, so definitly more money then Sg, however, I believe, if you specialize in some engineering field, salary and demand is not bad, and chances are that u would get to some leadership role(though, not in manufacturing). My total exp. is 12 years since 4 year degree in engineering. now planning to persue MBA from top 10 universities, to shift from engineering to management..hope this brightens some mechanical engineering aspirants, who might have read all the gloomy news in this page..(and above info. is not to brag or boast, but humble statistics, to encourage young enggs. to persue goals relentlessly).
cheers
5m10y Says:
September 26th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Rock on jigs! Good for you. Wish you success in your future endeavours!
tequila Says:
December 13th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
No worries I switched from engineering to engineering-investment activities, and pay and recognition and network have all increased exponentially…
ECE Says:
December 15th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Hi! I’m a current EE student in one of the N uni.Took EE out of interest and skills included.
I am completing a dip in acct and finance very soon with maximum scores. Can anyone advise on my career possiblities after i grad?
of course Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 1:20 am
ece, here’s an advise from an older person. Engieering to Account to Finance – sounds like you’ll be jack of all trades. I have 2 advises. First, 20yrs from now when you look back, you’ll either be in engnieering, or, finance, or neither. You can achieve faster and better if you focus on 1 area, and harness your skills all the way. Second, follow your instinct of what you think you like. You must know your purpose of wanting to do acc or finance. if you are waiting to see what will happen, you are not controlling your destiny, and thus many a times, give up what you like. asked anyone who has worked 20yrs, most if not all will tell you they do things not to their pursuit 20yrs back. Jigs did a great job, he knows what he wants, and pursue it in middle east. I’m sure he has reason to do this MBA, he has made the next plan. An example for all youngster out there.
ECE Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
My key interest definitely is in ECE. I took an acct and finance initially purely to seek improvement for myself. But after hearing the sky rocket pay and seeing how everyone is condemning engineering. Im somewhat demoralized and feel disturbed in the prospect of working in engineering field
of course Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
ECE, hi again, pls do not be demoralised. If you like what you do, go for it, engineering or finance or whatever. You don’t want to regret doing something you don’t like, even if that means making more monies than what you originally liked. Only 1 life, of course you have to live it happily. And, the bonus is, being happy at what you are doing bring out the passion in your work, and you will like to excel easier.
adiemuso Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
ECE,
money is not the only factor. its not easy making those kind of money as put across by many here. its misleading. doing what u like is the only sustainable way. its rare to hit the jackpot n run. you are better off betting big or small in the casinos..
ECE Says:
December 17th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
I see. Thanks everyone for such insightful advice. Im glad im still in ECE. Im looking forward to study on clean energy and hopefully implement them in Singapore if I have the opportunity…..
of course Says:
December 18th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
ECE,
as fresh graduate, what’s you view on clean energy? since you said it.
ECE Says:
December 18th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
I believe the whole concept is viable. A quick look at Australia and their government funding into clean energy certainly tells a lot how clean energy can be implemented without problems. For Singapore, I believe the clear cut solution would be solar. In fact, I still believe it is possible to construct offshore solar farms, although I have no idea why nobody’s doing it. Perhaps due to technical reason?
But in terms of technology , we certainly won’t be seeing any in SG in the near future since govt support and overfocus on its finance has already caused singapore to be light years behind in terms of solar development. you can BUY them off but i reckon without the specialist in it, not much can be done.
I also strongly believe in the whole funding and everything is just a fad. Singapore is getting too pragmatic and abandoning its manufacturing sectors already. I still think that students shld if unfortunately born like me inclined towards engineering get ready to erase all the knowledge and relearn after grad to find a better job.
Eric Says:
December 18th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
i guessed much comments have been made on this site. The only crucial factor is to know what you want and follow your strength in order to be competitiveness and be able to climb up in the industry and not just by looking into others of heading into a “financial sector” just because of high returns. one question actually doubts me “In what sense will they wants to hire someone of average they will rather hire someone ie; scholars or very experience skilled people. That why we sometime can see young chap ard the age of 28-30 in bank making profits and because of such generalisation people starts to think the banking is the best. Yeah, but 100 people ppl eventually only a few get enlisted. Hence in overall let focus on the “strength” in our areas.
Eric.
Undergraduate.
Eric Says:
December 18th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
Hi Eric,
Hi again, a bit off topic here .Do you happen to be an undergrad in engineering as well?
By the way, I am always having this wonder about how actual engineer do? Is it really outfield all the time, with all guys around?
BIG FISH Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 5:09 am
I’m an ECE grad too, but never as an Engineer. The rule in the real world: Your pay corresponds to how much $ you can bring in to the Co. The more money you bring in, the more you will be paid. As an engineer, your value is lesser as usually you don’t contribute to sales…. and if you can control a portion of the entire sales, then you are in a position to negotiate for more… Also, in choosing a company, you need to consider whether you want to be a Big Fish in a Small Pond or a Small Fish in a Big Pond… i choose to be a Big Fish…
ECE Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 10:15 am
Hi BIG FISH, that is exactly what I thought. I am now looking to working in a bank or a sales engineer. Dun mind can you share with me your profession and some advice on how you got it?
chnrxn Says:
December 28th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
I would say it also depends on the company culture.
I believe that having started as an entrepot trading center, Singapore company culture generally does not value engineering. Such a company would likely be a distributor, a middleman who benefits from volume. The more you sell, the more valuable you are to a company, because ultimately, the product/concept/idea originates from somewhere else.
A lot of private companies in Singapore with R&D facilities have them to take advantage of grants from EDB or IDA, or simply because it makes the company look more attractive to prospective clients. The basic nature of these companies are still manufacturing.
Companies who have R&D need to recognize that the products are made possible by the product planners (those who really come up with the ideas for a product) and engineers who make the product happen. These companies have not got rid of the ‘middleman’ mindset.
Stats used for benchmarking ministrial pay against the top private sector professionals have also shown that top ‘engineers’ earn much less than the lawyers, doctors and accountants. Such is the sad stat of affairs in Singapore.
army_regular Says:
February 22nd, 2009 at 8:22 pm
Hey all, I’m currently with the force and has a BSc in computer sciences, which means I do all the techie stuff at work.
Lets not talk about my pay(which is blatantly on the MINDEF website), as we all went through NS we are always on standby, exercises over weekends, long long working/physical hours and demanding higher ranking officers.
My contract is coming to an end and I’ll be 26/27 by then. What are the odds for me to break into banking and finance? I’ve thought of getting CFA but not really sure if the other industries acknowledge my past years of experience in the force.
NSmen Says:
February 22nd, 2009 at 8:38 pm
army_regular, many people are still hoping to get into the banking & finance industry even at times like this and you are certainly not alone. Many are willing to take on contractual roles in banking until the recession is over before scouting for another more permanent role. Even with the relevant certs and degree, it is very diificult to get in the industry without any experiences. So i can only say good luck to you.
baka-neko Says:
March 1st, 2009 at 9:53 pm
hi all. i see that so much discussion about finance and engineering sector going on, is there anyone with hindsight on the IT sector. I got a B.Comp and noticed that IT grads usually get a much lower starting pay than almost everyone, usually below 2.6k/mo while fresh engineering guys etc usually find themselves carrying home 3.5k/mo or more.
low cost-low tech Says:
April 12th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
hi baka-neko
think u are one of the lower income earners around. Check
http://www.salary.sg/2009/graduate-employment-surveys-published-2009/
barclays Says:
April 12th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Yeah, definitely low cost low tech is correct.
Baka-neko, IT grads are paid that low probably because you join the wrong company. In my company even fresh grads get almost double of what you’re getting. No offense there, just stating facts.
Drahcir Says:
April 15th, 2009 at 12:47 am
Hai~
My company just have some engineer lay off. So sad and the best part is that my company which is a large MNC have never retrenched any engineer since it have set up in spore 30 years ago. I can’t help but think
1)engineer is low cost low tech, but if it is stable, so be it. Be a tortise, yet you still compete the race. However, i seriously doubt, as we are also in danger of retrenchment
2)I have work 4 yrs in eng, & my pay is only 3400 and I am now 30 yrs old. Is it too late to switch?
Worrying days
low cost-low tech Says:
April 15th, 2009 at 9:13 am
engineers are not of much value. if engineering is important, sg govt will set up singapore engineering university in bras basah, not singapore management university.
Simple is Beautiful Says:
April 15th, 2009 at 10:52 am
30yrs old is not too late. I now 28 and pay 3500. but feel current engineering job not suitable to me in long run as soon I will have to bring home works to do. I want spend my weekends 100% on family life.
I think you have to decide what life-style and trade-in u are comfortable with. I even consider buy house in Johor and work in SG after married. This will increase my salary “2 times” loh. Of course, that mean I have to spend more time & effort on travelling (can watch video using PSP)but I think worth it.
sour grapes Says:
April 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
bad reasoning.. still need engineers.. just that they are not well paid.. pay at times is not tagged to value of the job/work.. and this is very much the case.
Drahcir Says:
April 15th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
If I decided to switch, which industry should I go for, or what type of course should I under-take.
1) Bank – corporate, investment (which i do not think I can get in)
2) Take a MBA
3) Other sale-orientated job like property agent or insurance
Undergrad Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
To low cost-low tech
Your views and comments are so myopic. SMU is setup to meet the rising demands of undergrad enrolment in Singapore. And for your info, the faculty of engineering has the highest enrolment rate in both NUS and NTU due to higher resources as compared to school of business. Moreover, SMU is setup with an aim of providing a business from another approach. FYI again, SMU degrees are not yet recognised globally when compared to NUS or NTU degrees.
To ECE,
I agree with you that renewable energy such as solar energy (in which the gov put a lot of emphasis on) is a viable option in Singapore. However, Singapore is currently extremely backward in solar technology as compared to solar tech research giants such as germany, australia and USA. FYI, the newly setup research institute in NUS (Solar Energy Research Institute of Singapore, SERIS) only focuses on 1st and 2nd generation solar tech, as they do not believe in the newer 3rd generation. Moreover, the major activities in the solar field here involves the construction of manufacturing plants, not research labs. So if you want to venture into this field, best bet is to go places like aust or germany.
PS: Your offshore solar plant is not viable yet due to the high cost of underwater cables for transmission of electricity. This will further strain the initial investment due to the already very high cost of solar modules. Moreover, maintainence cost will increase dramatically if the modules are offshore.
lower cost-lower tech Says:
May 19th, 2009 at 10:07 am
when will we see a new university setup with an aim of providing an engineering education from another approach, without mass producing engineering graduates for the manufacturing plants ?
Nick Says:
May 19th, 2009 at 10:18 am
My two cents worth. When you don’t succeed, don’t blame it on others. Whether you succeed in the working world is irregardless of what degree you did in school. Many of us go on and on claiming that business is a better degree than engineering. Well, if you are so damn good, you will succeed anywhere and with whatever degree you did in uni. But if you are no good, the outcome will be the same, regardless of whatever degree you have.
Tom Says:
May 19th, 2009 at 10:45 am
Success depends on some luck.
It will still be good to discuss what kind of degrees are good for general students.
We know that a Philosophy major can also be a millionaire, but what is the mean/median salary of all philosophy majors in Singapore?
Students should choose a degree course with eyes wide open and armed with such info.
Undergrad Says:
May 19th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
To low cost-lower tech
Engineering is different from business degrees. Being a professional and accredited degree, there are certain guidlines in which the course has to follow. Furthermore, engineering degree in Singapore now is much more different as compared to the past. New course materials and requirements such as human resource and biz modules are present for a holistic education.
The basline is that the system can only do this much. Many ppl take an engineering course but only some will excel. This is the same in all other courses such as business.
Quoting low cost-low tech, if engineering is mass producing engine grads for manufacturing plants, business is also good in mass producing biz grads for 8 to 5 offices in Raffles Place.
Of course, this is not true. Only people with aim and passion excel. So please do not make stereotyping and sweeping statements.
Drahcir Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:44 am
But if you are no good, the outcome will be the same, regardless of whatever degree you have.
I do not agreed. What make a person so good, if he is not gifted by nature. It is the education and the environment. My qns is: Do you think that people from engineering background is aiming for a easy way out or rather they have been in this environment, hence know the limitation of this industry, esp in spore.
Goodie Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Read the Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. Success is a combination of many factors, and luck plays a major, major part.
Undergrad Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:47 am
To Drahcir,
As what goodie has mentioned, success is determined by a very complex combination of factors. Of course education and environment is one of them, but they are not the only determining ones.
Do you really think going into the finance sector or any other sector from engineering is an “easy way out”? I believe to be able to succeed in any industry, there is no easy way out, especially in Singapore. Also, what kind of limitation are you talking about? Career prospects? Annual income? Starting a company? If you are talking about all these, then there is limitation in all sectors and industries, because currently i do not know of any sector or industry which can allow most people in the industry, if not all, to be able to do very well in the above mentioned fields.
lower cost-lower tech Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:58 am
when will we see a new university setup with an aim of providing an engineering education from another approach, without mass producing non-holistic engineering graduates who can only think for the not valued, low cost-low tech sg manufacturing plants ??
finance Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
As long as the government value the finance industry more than engineering, finance grads will always earn more on the whole, regardless of whether they are bright sparks or average performer. We’re talking about what’s the best industry to go into for the average student. If you’re a bright spark, no matter where you go you’ll still do well (with a bit of luck of course).
I give you 2 extreme examples to illustrate my point:
Imagine you’re average, and you decide to do ballet. How to survive in Singapore as an average ballerina?
Now imagine you’re an average back office operations guy in UOB bank or MAS. You’ll have a stable career with above-average pay barring unforeseen circumstances like retrenchments (UOB has no retrenchment thus far in this crisis and MAS has never retrenched any staff).
lower cost-lower tech Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
hi
m i still doing well, if i m bright spark going far in a low cost low tech place ?
Drahcir Says:
May 31st, 2009 at 2:27 pm
To Undergrad:
U misunderstand my qns. Anyway, what I am trying to tell you is for engineering graduate to go into sale/bank is hard, but we will still try, becoz of the limitation of engineering in spore. The biggest of all challenge coming from China. In a nutshell, cost. Meaning that our manufacturing plant which is owned by foreign MNC will move out one day. can be very fast. And giving the environment banking will be one of the key pillar to be developed in spore. And trust me, a lot of engineering graduate succeed in banking
Undergrad Says:
June 1st, 2009 at 9:57 am
To Drachir,
Sorry that I misunderstood your qn. Anyway, I do agree with you that a lot of engineering grad succeed in banking, especially in finance related jobs due to the analytical nature and good handling of figures present in most engineers due to the nature of their course. A lot of banks are actually holding recruitment drives in NUS and NTU engineering to recruit engineers into financial sectors.
To lower cost-lower tech,
I suggest that before you post anymore comments, go check out the recent news and development of education and careers in Singapore.
Firstly, President Nathan has already revealed the commencement of a 4th university in Singapore, and MOE has just held a press conference stating that the 4th university will be a university of applied technology, situated in Changi.
Secondly, if you are a bright spark in engineering, you will most probably won’t go into production or manufacturing, but rather research areas in which singapore is pouring a lot of money into. You can go check out how much good researchers earn in institutes like Astar. I know they earn a lot. Alternatively, if you are a bright spark, you may even excel if you venture in the banking/finance sector, or even become an entrepreneur.
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June 14th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
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Engineering in Singapore? Says:
December 28th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
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